Author Topic: Operation Rhine Exercise  (Read 12744 times)

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Mark

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Re: Operation Rhine Exercise
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2015, 10:19:21 AM »
OK, further map edits (easier right now than having to think about the rules :) )

Hopefully this gets it a little better & addresses most of the concerns you raised. 

I also like it that the furthest West convoy zone on the edge of the map is not in range of u-boats based from Germany and can only be reached once France has fallen. . .this was intended, but did not make the last map edit. 


Darkman

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Re: Operation Rhine Exercise
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2015, 08:23:46 PM »
Yeah it fixes some issues.. One i found is .. as british you can no longer move tactical from Irish sea to the West convoy zone if this is an issue. But you can now move tactical from usa to York

Also still the Operation Rhine Excerise Is not working as it is 7 spaces ;-) maybe you take a look in my rules Suggestion . It would make it possible and i would love to see multiple naval battles and as an Axis you would Need a Strategy to move Out of the Atlantic without getting Killed and not having a Walk through the Park when moving home.


A Mechanized movement phase wouldn't work for this because the Initiative .. You could just move home before the other player can do anything. Or he has to move his ships home before he can do anything .. We Need an extra phase where ships are on Combat naval Patrol but with an Intercept table where you can't be sure that you find the enemy ships .. so you have several options .. Moving out your ships in movement Phase to snapfire ships before they can do any damage,  moving tactical to attack ships and Defending the convoys .. Or Waiting and trying to select the jewels you try to Intercept in their way Home.. But whatever you will do .. The Defender should be able to Fire back in any Form .. Snapfire , combat , Intercept ..
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 12:39:12 AM by Darkman »

georgemak1

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Re: Operation Rhine Exercise
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2015, 05:41:35 AM »
So we should be expecting a European map modification in the near future?

Mark

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Re: Operation Rhine Exercise
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2015, 06:32:17 AM »
Too early to say yet. . . needs to be play tested and discussed more.

I think we may leave the naval rules as they are now, but provide some sort of 'advanced' version of naval movement and combat once we hammer this out some more for people to try out.

georgemak1

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Re: Operation Rhine Exercise
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2015, 05:26:06 AM »
I think you should keep sea invasion to 2 sea zones, as it is very difficult to logistically  support it from that far, plus will eliminate unhistorical situations. You should still keep the 8 zone strategical move on the regular phase, but these units dont get to move in the mech phase, with the proposed rule,  transports only get to move 15 instead of 16 zones, that can create some problems for the Allies reinforcing North Africa, especially when India and Australia is out of the game.

Darkman

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Re: Operation Rhine Exercise
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2015, 11:40:01 PM »
Based on the last redesign.
Are These two changes now an issue or fine in your eyes? (Green Lines)
Otherwise i like the Map changes a LOT !

As i read today the Bismarck wasn't on full capacity when leaving Gotenhafen and did NOT want to be refuelled in Bergen because they didn't want to waste time after they got sighted.. this was a mistake because they had to reduce speed to reach the French coast for a save return....

The Prinz Eugen was refuelled in Bergen & in the North atlantic tho..
« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 03:13:15 AM by Darkman »

Darkman

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Re: Operation Rhine Exercise
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2015, 03:08:39 AM »
Map Suggestion to fix 2 more issues

1. The Bismarck Route (I changed the Sea zones in the Baltic Sea )

2. Airforces that bomb Leningrad from Königsberg through Sea territory.  (Red Lines)
Königsberg should be out of range for this through Sea territories as it is through Land.

The Luftwaffe 1 was in Estonia / Riga / Latvia to Secure Finnland & Bomb Leningrad + Nothern Territories.
The Luftflotte 5 was in Finnland to do the same. (Blue Lines)

« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 07:36:42 AM by Darkman »

Darkman

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Re: Operation Rhine Exercise
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2015, 07:20:48 AM »
I read your suggestions and tried to implement. i would still not to give up this idea too fast aswell . Due to the map edits i cut some rules down.

Snapfire changes

-  Ships shoot back in Snapfire attack (1 Round battle) After that if the ship is not damaged / retreated it can continue it's movement.
   
Combat Sea Patrol

This Phase is after the Mechanized Movement Phase.

- Initative Winner \ Loser can move tactical Combat Ships & Combat Planes (Except Heavy Bombers) that haven't moved in any movement phase. They can not enter sea zones where naval battles occured in the previous turn. This reflects the hunt and contact losing to ships that are no longer on the same Position as the CSP fleets moving later

- Ships that are in Combat Sea Patrol marked by an die.
- Combat Ships, Submarines & Planes that did not fight in the movement Phase can snapfire these CSP ships if they move through your sea Zone or go into Combat Sea Patrol Mode itself and stay in that sea Zone.

Mark Control of Sea zones


- Additional to the rules place a control Marker on every sea Zone where you have a CSP unit.

Strategic Movement Phase

- Ships have to return to either harbors or submarines to merchant raiders. Ships can freely decide to move to normal Harbors.
- The Initiative winner and then the initiative loser moves his ships back that moved in the movement Phase but not the Units that are in Combat Sea Patrol. (Still marked by die)
- Only ships that are on Combat Sea Patrol can start attacks (1 Round battles) but each unit that is in CSP can only start 1 battle.
- Ships can move freely through enemy controlled territory sea zones but when moving through enemy owned Sea zones the enemy can activate it adjacent ships & Planes that are in CSP To join the hunt. If they do , there are activated aswell and can not start any further battle.

--------------------
After all ships moved back.. The CAP fleet / planes move back to ports / airfields aswell (no further combat)

OR

Optional:
When activating a CSP Group you remove the die Marker.
You always check if the initiative Winner and the the initiative Loser had ships to return before the ones in CSP ( Still Marked by die ) If both Sides have only CSP Forces still in sea then the initiative Winner Starts to bring home his units. If another battle occurs through this you check again moving the activated units before moving further CSP units..

Historically this was often happend that after a battle they didn't like to stay too Long in their positions because enemy submarines / ships were Approaching ..


« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 05:49:45 AM by Darkman »

Mark

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Re: Operation Rhine Exercise
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2015, 05:31:01 AM »
I can't remember why we prevented ships from moving through enemy controlled sea zones on the non-combat movement phase. . .perhaps this is something that needs to be done away with even in the current rulls system. . .it creates some odd 'gamey' things and i can't remember now why we thought it was important to prevent. . .

Darkman

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Re: Operation Rhine Exercise
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2015, 05:45:30 AM »
Maybe it was just carried over from the old system where you used ZoCs?

How do you like my map changes (Baltic Sea) ?

By the way thinking more about your map changes (Green lines)
I think they are pretty fine. Moving Tactical from US to York shouldn't provide any problem.. and the west convoy Zone should seems logical for the distance to be 5. 
All other changes you made on the map are such an improvement and more realistic. I would instantly print it ;-)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 05:56:17 AM by Darkman »

John D.

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Re: Operation Rhine Exercise
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2015, 10:08:30 AM »
I think we can do away with that rule. It's more for supply than anything else at this point..:

Darkman

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Re: Operation Rhine Exercise
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2015, 09:49:57 PM »
@ Mark & John .. Any chance to make a map out of your ( atlantic ) and mine map changes (baltic sea) + the changes you guys made to rivers ?

Mark

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Re: Operation Rhine Exercise
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2015, 01:46:20 AM »
I am working on it and then will turn over to John to make changes in the map file.  Not sure what his timing / schedule looks like.  Please make sure there are not other edits you would like to suggest.

Darkman

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Re: Operation Rhine Exercise
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2015, 10:53:59 AM »
I am working on it and then will turn over to John to make changes in the map file.  Not sure what his timing / schedule looks like.  Please make sure there are not other edits you would like to suggest.

No i would be happy if i could test our changes.
I think again and again about your and my changes.
They fix alot of Little issues and i don't see any problems with it.
Please make it happen so i can print & test  8)

John D.

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Re: Operation Rhine Exercise
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2015, 04:52:06 PM »
I await Marks orders :)