Author Topic: German Leaders  (Read 18005 times)

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Darkman

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German Leaders
« on: August 14, 2014, 11:55:50 AM »
Hey guys

I would suggest to bring back some old stats for two german leaders while also updating the removal \ entry table

The suggest is to give the german high command better Generals but taking more care about the removal so the germans don't have gernerals in late game that were already dead or out of office

Consider to Change:

1. Friedrich Paulus :    Give him back his defensive reroll. He was a well known tactican and got very famous about his defensive success in Charkow against the red army.

2. Erich Raeder:         Resigned and should be removed on 30. Januar 1943. (Winter 1942-43) Turn

3. Wilhelm List      :    Historically removed on 10. September 1942( Autumn 1942 in your game) because of arguing too much with Hitler.

4. Ewald von Kleist :   Give him back his offensive reroll and increase his Tactical Value by 1. (There exist Songs about him like "panzers vorwärts") He wasn't that static"  but surely more careful than Rommel & Guderian.               Remove him in March 1944 (Winter Turn 43-44) Was dismissed while arguing too much with Hitler.
                                He showed very good offensive tactics, leaded the first panzergroup and did a breakthrough through the Stalin-Line

5. Günther von Kluge: Give him a defensive reroll. The defensive lines he created within his command area stood firm against most Russian attacks until 1944.
                                On October 27, 1943, Kluge was badly injured when his car overturned on the Minsk–Smolensk road. He was unable to return to duty until July 1944
                                On July 7th 1944, Kluge was given the task of Commander-in-Chief West
                                Historically he was dismissed by Hitler on 16. August 1944 and died 19. August 1944 by own poison (Actually Autumn 1944 Turn).
                                Similiar end like Rommel so you could remove him in Summer 1944 Turn aswell. (Summer Turn 1944 goes until  14.August8)

6. Hermann Hoth: The Picture you use as a Leader is Walther von Reichenau .
                             This is Hermann Hoth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Hoth
                              You had the right Picture longer ago http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/bibl/mil/ww2/who/pics/hoth.jpg

7. Walter Model: Increase his Defensive Value by 1 for total of 2. I think he was known to be a very good defensive strategist, better than others. At least books say that about him
                                     " Model deserves recognition as one of the great defensive commanders of modern military history." http://www.amazon.de/Walther-Model-background-battlefield-experiences/dp/1849083576
 


Italian General:
8. Italo Gariboldi: Should replace Rodolfo Graziani in Winter 40-41 Turn.
                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo_Gariboldi


Consider to Add:

1. Walther von Reichenau :  In September 1939, Reichenau commanded the 10th Army during the German invasion of Poland. In 1940 he led the 6th Army during the invasion of Belgium and France, and in 1940, Hitler promoted him to field marshal during the 1940 Field Marshal Ceremony. He led his army into the heart of Russia during the summer of 1941 and should be removed on (Winter 1941-42) Turn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_von_Reichenau
http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/bibl/mil/ww2/who/pics/reichenau.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BujS-flgYoQ

2. Ferdinand Schörner : Give him a defensive reroll. In March 1944 he was made commander of Army Group A.
    Before beeing Army commander he were fighting succesful in Norway and Finland in defensive battles against the soviet army.
    Later Schörner managed in a series of defensive battles to stabilize the crumbling front in the south on the Dniester River in Romania.
    By the end of World War II he was Hitler's favourite commander. He was also the last of Hitler's field marshals to die.
    Should be added in (Winter 1943-44) Turn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Sch%C3%B6rner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3NWXtyLoDc

3. Ernst Busch : Replaced von Kluge after his accidient on the easter front "Army Group Centre"
                                   ( Autumn 1943 - Summer 1944) 
                                   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Busch_(field_marshal)                             
                                 

4. Georg von Küchler: Could be added Winter 1941-42 Turn. Commanded the Army Group North and did the  Siege of Leningrad after "Leeb"
                                      Removed: Winter 1943-44 by Hitler.
                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_von_K%C3%BCchler

Italian General

5. Alfredo Guzzonihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfredo_Guzzoni




German Luftwaffe Generals
Maybe for the Future...?

1.    Hugo_Sperrle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Sperrle
2.    Wolfram_von_Richthofen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram_von_Richthofen
3.  Robert_Ritter_von_Greim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ritter_von_Greim
4. Erhard Milch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Milch
5.Hermann Göring
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring
6. Albert Kesselring ( He was also a Luftwaffe Commander)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Kesselring

 

« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 11:50:37 AM by Darkman »

John D.

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Re: German Leaders
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2014, 03:06:13 PM »
This need to go to Mark. This is beyond my pay grade  :)

Darkman

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Re: German Leaders
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2014, 06:16:03 AM »
Highly Updated.

So you guys can take a look at it and hopefully can use it  ;D

Darkman

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Re: German Leaders
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2014, 03:06:27 AM »
Updated again.

- The Picture you use for Leader "Hoth" is actually wrong.
- Added two Italian Generals. (One of them replacing an existing in Winter 40-41)
- Added Schörner  (Don't have John's painting Skills)
  Please use Just for Imagination. I rushed it ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3NWXtyLoDc
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 11:05:17 AM by Darkman »

John D.

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Re: German Leaders
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2014, 06:37:38 AM »
We can all use more leaders. Like the logo for Schorner...

Darkman

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Re: German Leaders
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2014, 12:20:25 PM »
Actually this change would make that there are less German Leaders in "Endgame."
But give some good generals their stats back (Paulus & Kleist,Kluge) , and adding 1 more late game defender (Schörner)
Busch, Küchler we would have to think some stats for them, but maybe some weaker ones as they replaced (Kluge, Leeb)
Still have to check Reichenau

What i ingored:

Paulus = Because he surrenderd at Stalingrad
Kleist's = Car accidient in Russia, He came back but in the western theatre, only for short time and then kicked out of Office & died quickly one month after the invasion.

I also see some Leader come later into game than they got their command. Maybe because you guys wanted to have only Winter-Entry for Germany?

For Example:
Kesselring should have come earlier i think (Autumn 1943)
Dietrich? I don't unterstand the Winter 1943 Entry at all. Maybe Mark can explain this?

-----
What we could do to still let all Leaders (except Summer 44) come and go in Winter Turns.
- Let List leave 3 month later than historically but let Busch come earlier.
- Busch got promoted in Februar 1943, but got a command later when Kleist had his accidient, so this would work

On the other side (Not in the table)

Italy replaces Graziani with Gariboldi (Pretty historical) & gets with Guzzoni another general that leaded Italian 4th Army during the invasion of France and later Commanding the 6th Army on Sicily and commander of the Axis troops on Sicily during the Allied invasion of the island.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 12:47:30 PM by Darkman »

Darkman

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Re: German Leaders
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2014, 12:07:36 PM »
Added a Leader table to reflect all suggested changes + the new leader stats
I thought much about and read alot, please let me know what you think.

Will do the two new italian ones soon.

I would say we also have to look on the allied side. Maybe you know some of the guys better than me  8)

- Maybe you can bring "William Gott" back on the british side if needed?
- Or maybe 1 or 2 more russian leaders?

John D.

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Re: German Leaders
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2014, 01:08:16 PM »
Really cool - I will defer to Mark. Really cool - did I say that...?

Darkman

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Re: German Leaders
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2014, 08:01:59 AM »
Thank you John.

For the Italian Leader


Rodolfo Graziani   (Remove Winter 40-41 Turn.)

Italo Gariboldi:  Tactical 2 / Strategic 4 / Attack Reroll 0 / Defense Reroll 0  /  No Blitz ( Entry Winter 40-41 Turn & Replace Graziani)
Fought in Africa & later Russia \ Stalingrad

Alfredo Guzzoni Tactical 1 / Strategic 4 / Attack Reroll 0 / Defense Reroll 0  /  No Blitz (Entry 1939 Turn1 in Albania)
Fought in France & the defense of Silicy with Kesselring

Giovanni Messe  Tactical 3 / Strategic 3 / Attack Reroll 0 / Defense Reroll 0  /  Blitz (Entry Winter 40-41 Turn)
Glovanni Messe is known to be the best italian general in world war 2 and a armored warfare experience.
He was the only General that got command over german forces.
He fought in Russia (1941) and later in Africa with Rommel and slowed down american forces with counteroffensives

« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 10:38:35 AM by Darkman »

John D.

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Re: German Leaders
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2014, 11:21:22 AM »
The Italian Leaders look totally cool - I vote YES!

Mark

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Re: German Leaders
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2014, 02:13:52 AM »
OK, wow - another good thread of discussion on generals. . .I largely agree with most of them.  A few I am struggling with. . .

Agree Model was an excellent defensive general - which is why I gave him a defensive re-roll.  I am concerned that 2 defensive re-rolls may make him incredibly powerful. . .Personally, I think Kesselring was the best defensive leader the Germans had and I am not sure I would want to make Model superior to him.  I think if we make Paulus and Kluge 1 re-roll leaders, we need to make Kesselring and Model 2 re-roll leaders - which may really over-power German leadership later in the game.  If we made these changes, I would want to take a hard look at the Allied leaders and boost some of their offensive re-roll numbers to compensate a little.

I can see your position on Kleist. . .I guess if we really wanted to be strict, we would not have Guderian at the beginning of the game (a corps commander) and have Kleist instead.  I wanted to have Guderian though in order to give the Germans the extra edge of 2 offensive re-roll panzer leader - and then introduce Kleist later for the Russian campaign.  I can see making Kleist better on the offensive - I guess his caution during the France campaign in wanting to relieve Guderian for being more aggressive tainted my view of him as a truly dynamic panzer leader. . .but if we introduce him not until Winter 40, we could make him a 1 re-roll leader. . .

All the other ideas and the new leaders for the Germans and Italians I think are do-able and can add a little more flavor.

georgemak1

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Re: German Leaders
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2014, 05:50:26 AM »
Thx for the quick response Mark, anyone is willing to make a print out page with the new leaders and their new off/def values?

Darkman

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Re: German Leaders
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2014, 08:05:05 AM »
Thank for Response Mark.
I'm happy you like most of it.

You are right, i forgot Kesselring. I didn't want to shock you with more than one 0/2 Leader  ;)
Well maybe Kesselring would need a 0/2 aswell to make a gap between him and Kluge & Paulus, and so on. True!

If you didn't see my entry table already.
List & Reader would leave Winter 1942, Kleist Winter 1943 , and Kluge Summer 1944.
So even with the new ones the german endgame Leaders (Autumn 44 - Last Turn)
The german player ( Without italy, Romania, Finland ) would have only 8 instead of 11 Leaders.

When played i often thought moving around all these 0/0 leaders is no fun at all.
It was more fun that you delegate your leaders with stats to divisions and plan your strategy.

I have to admit it is fun to play Heinz Guderian even when we was under Kleist's command.
I sometimes hoped we would see Rommel driving around in france with his "Ghost Division"
But maybe that would be too much fun  ::)

I would Keep Guderian for favor , giving Kleist +1 tactical +1 offensive(He leaves Winter 1943) and looking strongly on the allied side if we find some improvements for mid / endgame

I would strongly support and prefer that we make it happen you take a hard look at the allied leaders.
Some of them also boring ;-)

Maybe you guys can revive Gott (aka Master of Disaster? *Joke*)  for the British or some other soviet \ american \ british leaders still in the pocket ?
Maybe adding 1 more soviet Leader in Autumn 1942 or adding 1-2 more in Autumn 1943?

« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 11:05:54 AM by Darkman »

georgemak1

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Re: German Leaders
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2014, 08:13:33 PM »
So does anybody can do a new print out page so we can playtest the new leaders?

Mark

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Re: German Leaders
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2014, 01:13:38 AM »
I am still thinking over and discussing this suggestion.  If we up all these German leader's defensive values, I feel like we need to improve some Allied leader's offensive values to maintain game balance.

I would play with the leaders as is for now - This needs some more thinking and playtesting. 

Possible Allied leaders I am thinking about adding in order to give the Allies a bit more punch are:
Horrocks - prob the best British corp commander of the war.  Had he not been wounded in North Africa, he likely would have commanded an Army in France or Italy.  He we be a blitz leader with 2-4-1/1 rating.  Enter Spring 1943

Collins - Lightning Joe Collins was prob the best US armored corps commander of the war. He would be a blitz leader with a 3-3-1/0 rating.  Enter Winter 1943

Truscott - Excellent US Corps commander and later army commander.  He would be a 2-4-1/1 probably.  Enter Winter 1943

Yeremenko - Soviet Front commander that helped organize the defense of Stalingrad.  Not sure on entry

Maybe Chuikov - The Soviet leader at Stalingrad.  Only an Army Commander though (equivalent to a corp) - but would be like a 2 defensive re-roll guy. Not sure on entry.  Maybe automatically whenever a 2 or 3 Soviet VP city is attacked.

Anyway - just thinking out loud right now.

In addition, maybe of thinking making Montgomery a 1-8-1/1 leader and maybe Bradley a 2-7-0/1 leader.