WWII: Struggle for Europe____WWII: Struggle for Asia => Game Design => Topic started by: Darkman on August 14, 2014, 11:55:50 AM

Title: German Leaders
Post by: Darkman on August 14, 2014, 11:55:50 AM
Hey guys

I would suggest to bring back some old stats for two german leaders while also updating the removal \ entry table

The suggest is to give the german high command better Generals but taking more care about the removal so the germans don't have gernerals in late game that were already dead or out of office

Consider to Change:

1. Friedrich Paulus :    Give him back his defensive reroll. He was a well known tactican and got very famous about his defensive success in Charkow against the red army.

2. Erich Raeder:         Resigned and should be removed on 30. Januar 1943. (Winter 1942-43) Turn

3. Wilhelm List      :    Historically removed on 10. September 1942( Autumn 1942 in your game) because of arguing too much with Hitler.

4. Ewald von Kleist :   Give him back his offensive reroll and increase his Tactical Value by 1. (There exist Songs about him like "panzers vorwärts") He wasn't that static"  but surely more careful than Rommel & Guderian.               Remove him in March 1944 (Winter Turn 43-44) Was dismissed while arguing too much with Hitler.
                                He showed very good offensive tactics, leaded the first panzergroup and did a breakthrough through the Stalin-Line

5. Günther von Kluge: Give him a defensive reroll. The defensive lines he created within his command area stood firm against most Russian attacks until 1944.
                                On October 27, 1943, Kluge was badly injured when his car overturned on the Minsk–Smolensk road. He was unable to return to duty until July 1944
                                On July 7th 1944, Kluge was given the task of Commander-in-Chief West
                                Historically he was dismissed by Hitler on 16. August 1944 and died 19. August 1944 by own poison (Actually Autumn 1944 Turn).
                                Similiar end like Rommel so you could remove him in Summer 1944 Turn aswell. (Summer Turn 1944 goes until  14.August)  8)

6. Hermann Hoth: The Picture you use as a Leader is Walther von Reichenau .
                             This is Hermann Hoth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Hoth
                              You had the right Picture longer ago http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/bibl/mil/ww2/who/pics/hoth.jpg

7. Walter Model: Increase his Defensive Value by 1 for total of 2. I think he was known to be a very good defensive strategist, better than others. At least books say that about him
                                     " Model deserves recognition as one of the great defensive commanders of modern military history." http://www.amazon.de/Walther-Model-background-battlefield-experiences/dp/1849083576

Italian General:
8. Italo Gariboldi: Should replace Rodolfo Graziani in Winter 40-41 Turn.

Consider to Add:

1. Walther von Reichenau :  In September 1939, Reichenau commanded the 10th Army during the German invasion of Poland. In 1940 he led the 6th Army during the invasion of Belgium and France, and in 1940, Hitler promoted him to field marshal during the 1940 Field Marshal Ceremony. He led his army into the heart of Russia during the summer of 1941 and should be removed on (Winter 1941-42) Turn

2. Ferdinand Schörner : Give him a defensive reroll. In March 1944 he was made commander of Army Group A.
    Before beeing Army commander he were fighting succesful in Norway and Finland in defensive battles against the soviet army.
    Later Schörner managed in a series of defensive battles to stabilize the crumbling front in the south on the Dniester River in Romania.
    By the end of World War II he was Hitler's favourite commander. He was also the last of Hitler's field marshals to die.
    Should be added in (Winter 1943-44) Turn

3. Ernst Busch : Replaced von Kluge after his accidient on the easter front "Army Group Centre"
                                   ( Autumn 1943 - Summer 1944) 

4. Georg von Küchler: Could be added Winter 1941-42 Turn. Commanded the Army Group North and did the  Siege of Leningrad after "Leeb"
                                      Removed: Winter 1943-44 by Hitler.

Italian General

5. Alfredo Guzzoni:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfredo_Guzzoni

German Luftwaffe Generals
Maybe for the Future...?

1.    Hugo_Sperrle
2.    Wolfram_von_Richthofen
3.  Robert_Ritter_von_Greim
4. Erhard Milch
5.Hermann Göring
6. Albert Kesselring ( He was also a Luftwaffe Commander)


Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: John D. on August 14, 2014, 03:06:13 PM
This need to go to Mark. This is beyond my pay grade  :)
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Darkman on August 16, 2014, 06:16:03 AM
Highly Updated.

So you guys can take a look at it and hopefully can use it  ;D
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Darkman on August 17, 2014, 03:06:27 AM
Updated again.

- The Picture you use for Leader "Hoth" is actually wrong.
- Added two Italian Generals. (One of them replacing an existing in Winter 40-41)
- Added Schörner  (Don't have John's painting Skills)
  Please use Just for Imagination. I rushed it ;D

Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: John D. on August 17, 2014, 06:37:38 AM
We can all use more leaders. Like the logo for Schorner...
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Darkman on August 17, 2014, 12:20:25 PM
Actually this change would make that there are less German Leaders in "Endgame."
But give some good generals their stats back (Paulus & Kleist,Kluge) , and adding 1 more late game defender (Schörner)
Busch, Küchler we would have to think some stats for them, but maybe some weaker ones as they replaced (Kluge, Leeb)
Still have to check Reichenau

What i ingored:

Paulus = Because he surrenderd at Stalingrad
Kleist's = Car accidient in Russia, He came back but in the western theatre, only for short time and then kicked out of Office & died quickly one month after the invasion.

I also see some Leader come later into game than they got their command. Maybe because you guys wanted to have only Winter-Entry for Germany?

For Example:
Kesselring should have come earlier i think (Autumn 1943)
Dietrich? I don't unterstand the Winter 1943 Entry at all. Maybe Mark can explain this?

What we could do to still let all Leaders (except Summer 44) come and go in Winter Turns.
- Let List leave 3 month later than historically but let Busch come earlier.
- Busch got promoted in Februar 1943, but got a command later when Kleist had his accidient, so this would work

On the other side (Not in the table)

Italy replaces Graziani with Gariboldi (Pretty historical) & gets with Guzzoni another general that leaded Italian 4th Army during the invasion of France and later Commanding the 6th Army on Sicily and commander of the Axis troops on Sicily during the Allied invasion of the island.
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Darkman on August 18, 2014, 12:07:36 PM
Added a Leader table to reflect all suggested changes + the new leader stats
I thought much about and read alot, please let me know what you think.

Will do the two new italian ones soon.

I would say we also have to look on the allied side. Maybe you know some of the guys better than me  8)

- Maybe you can bring "William Gott" back on the british side if needed?
- Or maybe 1 or 2 more russian leaders?
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: John D. on August 18, 2014, 01:08:16 PM
Really cool - I will defer to Mark. Really cool - did I say that...?
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Darkman on August 19, 2014, 08:01:59 AM
Thank you John.

For the Italian Leader

Rodolfo Graziani   (Remove Winter 40-41 Turn.)

Italo Gariboldi:  Tactical 2 / Strategic 4 / Attack Reroll 0 / Defense Reroll 0  /  No Blitz ( Entry Winter 40-41 Turn & Replace Graziani)
Fought in Africa & later Russia \ Stalingrad

Alfredo Guzzoni Tactical 1 / Strategic 4 / Attack Reroll 0 / Defense Reroll 0  /  No Blitz (Entry 1939 Turn1 in Albania)
Fought in France & the defense of Silicy with Kesselring

Giovanni Messe  Tactical 3 / Strategic 3 / Attack Reroll 0 / Defense Reroll 0  /  Blitz (Entry Winter 40-41 Turn)
Glovanni Messe is known to be the best italian general in world war 2 and a armored warfare experience.
He was the only General that got command over german forces.
He fought in Russia (1941) and later in Africa with Rommel and slowed down american forces with counteroffensives

Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: John D. on August 19, 2014, 11:21:22 AM
The Italian Leaders look totally cool - I vote YES!
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Mark on August 25, 2014, 02:13:52 AM
OK, wow - another good thread of discussion on generals. . .I largely agree with most of them.  A few I am struggling with. . .

Agree Model was an excellent defensive general - which is why I gave him a defensive re-roll.  I am concerned that 2 defensive re-rolls may make him incredibly powerful. . .Personally, I think Kesselring was the best defensive leader the Germans had and I am not sure I would want to make Model superior to him.  I think if we make Paulus and Kluge 1 re-roll leaders, we need to make Kesselring and Model 2 re-roll leaders - which may really over-power German leadership later in the game.  If we made these changes, I would want to take a hard look at the Allied leaders and boost some of their offensive re-roll numbers to compensate a little.

I can see your position on Kleist. . .I guess if we really wanted to be strict, we would not have Guderian at the beginning of the game (a corps commander) and have Kleist instead.  I wanted to have Guderian though in order to give the Germans the extra edge of 2 offensive re-roll panzer leader - and then introduce Kleist later for the Russian campaign.  I can see making Kleist better on the offensive - I guess his caution during the France campaign in wanting to relieve Guderian for being more aggressive tainted my view of him as a truly dynamic panzer leader. . .but if we introduce him not until Winter 40, we could make him a 1 re-roll leader. . .

All the other ideas and the new leaders for the Germans and Italians I think are do-able and can add a little more flavor.
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: georgemak1 on August 25, 2014, 05:50:26 AM
Thx for the quick response Mark, anyone is willing to make a print out page with the new leaders and their new off/def values?
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Darkman on August 25, 2014, 08:05:05 AM
Thank for Response Mark.
I'm happy you like most of it.

You are right, i forgot Kesselring. I didn't want to shock you with more than one 0/2 Leader  ;)
Well maybe Kesselring would need a 0/2 aswell to make a gap between him and Kluge & Paulus, and so on. True!

If you didn't see my entry table already.
List & Reader would leave Winter 1942, Kleist Winter 1943 , and Kluge Summer 1944.
So even with the new ones the german endgame Leaders (Autumn 44 - Last Turn)
The german player ( Without italy, Romania, Finland ) would have only 8 instead of 11 Leaders.

When played i often thought moving around all these 0/0 leaders is no fun at all.
It was more fun that you delegate your leaders with stats to divisions and plan your strategy.

I have to admit it is fun to play Heinz Guderian even when we was under Kleist's command.
I sometimes hoped we would see Rommel driving around in france with his "Ghost Division"
But maybe that would be too much fun  ::)

I would Keep Guderian for favor , giving Kleist +1 tactical +1 offensive(He leaves Winter 1943) and looking strongly on the allied side if we find some improvements for mid / endgame

I would strongly support and prefer that we make it happen you take a hard look at the allied leaders.
Some of them also boring ;-)

Maybe you guys can revive Gott (aka Master of Disaster? *Joke*)  for the British or some other soviet \ american \ british leaders still in the pocket ?
Maybe adding 1 more soviet Leader in Autumn 1942 or adding 1-2 more in Autumn 1943?

Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: georgemak1 on August 28, 2014, 08:13:33 PM
So does anybody can do a new print out page so we can playtest the new leaders?
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Mark on August 29, 2014, 01:13:38 AM
I am still thinking over and discussing this suggestion.  If we up all these German leader's defensive values, I feel like we need to improve some Allied leader's offensive values to maintain game balance.

I would play with the leaders as is for now - This needs some more thinking and playtesting. 

Possible Allied leaders I am thinking about adding in order to give the Allies a bit more punch are:
Horrocks - prob the best British corp commander of the war.  Had he not been wounded in North Africa, he likely would have commanded an Army in France or Italy.  He we be a blitz leader with 2-4-1/1 rating.  Enter Spring 1943

Collins - Lightning Joe Collins was prob the best US armored corps commander of the war. He would be a blitz leader with a 3-3-1/0 rating.  Enter Winter 1943

Truscott - Excellent US Corps commander and later army commander.  He would be a 2-4-1/1 probably.  Enter Winter 1943

Yeremenko - Soviet Front commander that helped organize the defense of Stalingrad.  Not sure on entry

Maybe Chuikov - The Soviet leader at Stalingrad.  Only an Army Commander though (equivalent to a corp) - but would be like a 2 defensive re-roll guy. Not sure on entry.  Maybe automatically whenever a 2 or 3 Soviet VP city is attacked.

Anyway - just thinking out loud right now.

In addition, maybe of thinking making Montgomery a 1-8-1/1 leader and maybe Bradley a 2-7-0/1 leader.
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Darkman on August 29, 2014, 01:57:20 AM
Wow nice additions..i like Collins . Nice Mark . I would agree on boosting Monty driving Rommel Out of africa!
But also Bradley Looks good. He was more defensive than Patton.

Have to find out more about the soviet leaders & horrocks / truscott . They all Look interesting

Will tell my thoughts on stats after holiday.
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: John D. on August 29, 2014, 03:02:36 AM
All of these changes sound like lots of fun and very interesting!
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Darkman on August 31, 2014, 07:49:48 AM
Ok some thoughts

Horrocks : blitz leader with 2-4-1/1 rating. Enter Spring 1943

Collins -  blitz leader with a 3-3-1/0 rating.  Enter Winter 1943

Truscott - 2-4-1/0 rating . Enter Winter 1943

Yeremenko: blitz leader with - 4-3-1-1 rating( or 3-4-1-1). Enter Autumn 1941 maybe 1939 in a global game far eastern front (Nickname: the russian Guderian)

Chuikov 2-5-0/2 rating. Enter Summer 1942?
I like this guy, also on the cover of tide of iron : Stalingrad
What do you think?
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Mark on September 02, 2014, 04:26:23 AM
Are Busch and Kuchler really necessary?  I don't want to have a bunch of added average leaders that are just going to take up space.  Not all of the Allied or Soviet army or army group leaders are included in the game - not sure if it is necessary to add additional German leaders to the leader pool as well?
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Darkman on September 02, 2014, 05:22:28 AM
Hi Mark !

Well as i wrote in my first thread . Küchler replaced Leeb and continued the Siege of Leningrad .
Since we have Leeb i wanted the replacement also.

Busch replaced Kluge on the eastern front when he had an Car accidient and busch did a horrible job.
I kept Kluge in game because he came back but only for Short time and then hitler dimissed him on the western front. (Summer 44)
But busch aswell on the eastern front.

for me i don't see an overcrowed leader Situation .. If you look at the removal table there would be 3 Leaders less than it is now in post Summer 44

They both were "Generalfeldmarschall" -> highest Military Rank in german Army

Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Darkman on October 17, 2014, 10:19:14 PM
For your consideration

The Counterpart to Paulus
He was described as one of the most aggressive field generals of the entire Russian front but lack of supply (Blitz ability & High initiative (3), lower strategic value (4))
From Stalingrad to Victory Chuikov had witnessed firsthand the german blitzkrieg tactics with guerilla warfare. (High defensive ability)

Place on builds Summer 1942
Chuikov, Yeremenko , Malinovsky , Rokossovsky

All these 4 soviet leaders should be added Summer 1942 rather than Autmun 1942.
as they were all part of the soviet counterattack & defense of Stalingrad  Autumn 1942.

3 September - 9 December
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Darkman on August 03, 2015, 01:03:41 PM
Hello guys!

Just wanted to give a Feedback :)

i tried it out with Chuikov now some times. For my opinion it works very well and makes sense to bring the these 4 soviet Generals in summer 1944 to give them a option to counterattack the german Forces in autumn 1942 (more historical). As these 4 guys really turned the Tide in Autumn 1942.

Chuikov as the Counterpart to Paulus did an outstanding job from Stalingrad to Victory and honored two times as hero of the Soviet Union.

Sometimes the axis are able to surround & eliminate soviet generals in double mechs so the soviet forces gain another outstanding general for future turns and don't have to deal with more axis generals than soviets on the eastern front. (Which makes no sense)

Maybe you want to try it out one day if you like.

P.S Please fix "Koniev" one Day = His Name is Konev :)

Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: John D. on August 03, 2015, 03:45:14 PM
Neat - a Soviet double re-roll defense  - wow!
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Darkman on September 10, 2015, 12:00:10 PM
Hello Guys,

i had Holidays recently and had some time to read some stuff. I was totally suprised that i never heard of "Gotthard Heinrici"

He was never part of the Nazi Party but an very high skilled General of the Wehrmacht.

Heinrici is known an all sources i found as the best defensive expert General the Germans had in WW2.
In the middle of the war he fought 10 defensive Battles on the Russian front outnumbered by 12:1 and the russians had 530,000 casualties while his army lost 35,000.

If you never heard of that guy you might want to read his biography. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Heinrici

He was a world war 1 General.. often wearing his ww1 old boots and regular soldier uniforms. He often disagreed with the  scorched earth  policy the nazis had so he had to give up command twice but he was too good with Holding the lines so they gave him back his command.  In the middle of the war his was under v. Kluge command but later he in Summer 1944 he leaded the 1st Panzer Division (Manteuffel the 3rd Panzer).

In the End of the war he defended sucessfully Berlin on Battle of the Seelow Heights with 760,000 men against 2,5 Million russians for 3 days.  Lost around 12,000 men and the russian twice as much & around 780 Tanks

What would it mean for the game?

I would like to see him in Summer 1944 where we remove Rommel , Bush & Kluge. He got a new command in Summer 1944 after 8 month of enforced retirement -  so it would work perfectly.

The Picture is rushed and only for Suggestion :-)

Feel free to give comments!
Have fun!
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: John D. on September 10, 2015, 03:02:19 PM
That is awesome! He sounds legendary!
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Darkman on January 22, 2016, 11:52:41 PM
And another one

Alfredo Guzzoni for Italy. 

I changed the italian Leader Entry / Removal to be more historical.

Have fun
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: John D. on January 23, 2016, 04:57:01 AM
Love the changes -  8)
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Darkman on February 16, 2016, 09:58:59 PM
Ready for an 4th U-Boot Ace?

Reinhard Hardegen
Reinhard Hardegen  is a German U-boat commander who sank 22 ships, amounting to 115,656 gross register tons (GRT) sunk, making him the 24th most successful commander in World War II.

He is one of the most known & sucessful german U-Boat commanders.

I would say he is placed in 1939 scenario once 4th uboat is build (as it is in production at start)  in 1941 he goes to the 4th Uboat in Setup.
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: georgemak1 on February 18, 2016, 05:48:52 AM
Omg, I feel bad for the British player, :) :) :)
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Mark on February 19, 2016, 05:23:14 AM
I think we will add Heinrici - but maybe as a 4-1- 0/1  instead of 2 re-rolls.  Model and Kesselring I think are the top best known defensive generals of the war.

Don't know if the Germans need another ace - you think so?
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: John D. on February 21, 2016, 03:10:15 PM
Heinrici should be 2 defensive reroll  - he can't reinforce as well... Maybe he can take one round but not a second...
Title: Re: German Leaders
Post by: Darkman on March 02, 2016, 09:08:08 AM
I think we will add Heinrici - but maybe as a 4-1- 0/1  instead of 2 re-rolls.  Model and Kesselring I think are the top best known defensive generals of the war.

Don't know if the Germans need another ace - you think so?

Hello Mark,

well on all german sources i read Heinrici was the best german defensive specialist when it comes to kill / Death ratios.
I would try it with 2 rerolls and add Chuikov aswell to give it a try.
Axis offensives on the  Russian front should be harder for the axis Summer 1942+ anyways. 
If our actual game will reach 1944+ i can see at least the effect on him. But i think the game will end sooner.  ::)

About Hardegen it's the same. Hardegen is well known, giving the germans another Sub ace in 1939 and 1941.
Actually i forgot Prien is dead in 1941 Scenario so it would be 4 Sub aces in 1939 and 3 Sub aces in 41.