War entries

[sleipner]

Hi,
how does the US and Russian entries to the war work?
Fixed date or flexible start via entry levels?
In what ways can the neutrals join?
Are there any technology development?

Daniel

[Mark]

Hi Sleipner,

As in all WW2 wargames, it is a challenge to simulate the US and Soviet entry into the war given the hindsight that we have today (at the time the Germans under-rated the impact of going to war with both of them).

US and Soviet entry is governed by the their investment in improving their military production by investing in buying factories.  For the Russians, once they have 80 production points (by investing in building factories) they may declare war on Germany.  Timing-wise this works out to the Russians being able to declare war on Germany in Summer of 1941 if they are not attacked by Germany before then as long as they max out their factory building (Note that the Axis turn proceeds the Allied turn in this game - so if the Germans do not launch Barbarossa in Summer of 41, a good Russian player could attack Germany on their 1/2 of the turn).

US is similar.  US military production is quartered until they are at war.  once the US has 125 PP (before being quartered) they may declare war on all of the Axis (if not attacked first).  If the US max's their factory production, they will be able to declare war in the Winter of 1941.  So with good play, it usually forces the Japanese to attack them on or before Winter 1941.  This mechanic keeps Soviet and US participation in the war close to historical dates - with the possbility for some variability.

[Mark]

Neutrals join the side opposite of who attacks them.  so, if Germany attacks Belgium, Belgium joins the Allies.

Some neutrals may join the Axis over the course of the game.  Romania and Hungary, for example, automatically join the Axis on the turn after France falls or the turn after the Germans invade the Soviet Union, whichever somes first.

Others potentially join the Axis when certain events happen.  For example, if the Axis take Greece and Crete, they roll a die - if they roll a "1" Turkey joins the Axis.  If the Axis take Cario and the Suez, the Axis player rolls a die for each Spain and Turkey, on a "1-2" they join the Axis.  If the Germans take Norway, Sweden joins the Axis on a "1".  If the Japanese occupy French Indo-China, Siam joins the Japanese on a "1-4".  Each event can only be rolled for once per game.

[Mark]

Technology:

Some more advanced units are based on turns, for example, "the Germans may begin building heavy tanks in Autumn 1942".

Others are based on previous builds, for example, "The US may begin building medium armor once they have built an additional 3 light armor formations"

So, there is no tech investment or rolls - it is all time-centric or build-centric

[Yoper]

When I first was playing the game at Origins (as the Japanese), Mark kept asking me if I was going to get my fleet in position to hit Pearl.

I was noncommital as I didn't want to do it. 

Now other factors tripped me up in my prosecution of the war in China.  I didn't remember the Yellow line conditions from my reading of the rules so I was ready to attack Chungking.  Had to back off and reset my forces.

Biggest problem was Mark's assumption that the USA would be in the war at that time no matter what and I couldn't understand why.  I hadn't read anywhere were that was a given.  Later I finally figured out the whole production/factory build part of the USA rules.

The only way the USA doesn't come in is if they aren't putting the factory build through the production chart.  Why the USA wouldn't do that is beyond me.  I don't like the idea of the USA automatically (well, close to automatically) coming in, but any other rule set-up would probably become cumbersome.

Craig

[derdiktator]

I agree - I really don't like the virtually forced entry times of the Soviets & the US, but heck if I have a better idea and it does force the game to follow the major swing of historical events.  Even so, I think a tad more flexibility would be good.  How about something like delaying/speeding Barbarossa a turn does the opposite with regard to Pearl Harbor, or something.

dd

[Yoper]

Or after certain time frames (if not attacked), the USA production goes to half and then three-fourths, before finally going full.

That might allow the Japanese more lee-way in finishing things in China and setting up for an attack against the WA, but they have to balance that against a more prepared USA/UK.

Just a thought.

Craig

[Mark]

There are two major things to think about concerning Soviet and US entries - both of which may be addressed by different entry rules - but they need to be taken into account:

1) Germany, in particular, underestimated the military capacity of the US and Russia.  But, today, hindsight of your average player being what it is, of course a German player will do everything in his power to avoid going to war with the US and Russia for as long as he can.  This is a little unrealistic considering German perceptions and war aims at the time - so any change in the rule needs to take this into consideration.

2) Is a very important consideration:  The Victory/Defeat conditions are based on the Axis or the Allies contolling several more or less victory points than they did historically on a given turn.  If you change the US or Soviet entry by too much - you throw off this victory "gauge" of success or failure and will probably have to come up with a different method of determining who wins.

Perhaps a way to address #1 and #2 is to make Axis victory levels be lower the faster they can go to war with Russia and the US and be higher the longer they delay a world war with those powers?

[Yoper]

Always a balancing act.

As for the VPs- The Axis can only get so many without going to war with the WA/Russia.  But I do understand the fact that it would throw off the VP chart.

Craig

[derdiktator]

>...make Axis victory levels be lower the faster they can go
> to war with Russia and the US and be higher the longer
> they delay a world war with those powers?

I LIKE the idea of adjusting the VP chart up or down by say one or two VP per each turn that the Axis are early / late in attacking Russia or the US!   I think that's the ticket!  We'd of course would have to play with it a bit to see what sort of adjustment keeps things balanced. 

It could be quite simple to at least try out and I would suggest the following as a start: Each turn early that Barbarrossa goes off lowers all the VP level by say one VP, each turn late raises it by one VP.  For Pearl Harbor I'd be inclined to say two VP lower for each turn early / late. 

This way a one turn early Barbarossa and one turn early Pearl Harbor would lower the VP levels by three VP - quite a nice benefit to the Axis.  It would also keep the Allies guessing more (and which I'm not so sure is such a good thing, but what the heck, it'd be fun).

dd

[John D.]

I have witnessed a game in which Barbarossa started a turn late - BUT it was due to the Russians not keeping up with factory production. Russia pretty much fell. This was probably more due to the fact that there was a additional 40 PP loss of Russian production because they could not declare war as soon as they ususally could.

    It sounds like fun to playtest - this way you never know what is going to happen.

Yeah that sounds scary- we should try it....

John