AA Guns

[Yoper]

Are the air units going into a ground battle shot at by the AA gun before they are laid out on the ground battle chart or after?

This is pertinent from the standpoint of a battle in which some of the air units are supporting front line units and others are not. 

If the AA guns fires before the air units are positioned on the ground combat chart, then the decision as to what air units are supporting and are not supporting is easily made. 

But if it comes after placement on the ground combat chart, then it is likely that some of the supporting air units could be destroyed.  That then leaves the question of whether some of the unsupporting air units could then shift up into supporting positions to replace the downed air units.

I hope that you understand the situation that I have put forth.  If the AA fire is before the placement of air units on the ground combat chart, then the owner of the air units can place the surviving air units in any combination (supporting/nonsupporting)  he likes.  If the AA fire is after the placement of air units on the ground combat chart, then there is the need to clarify if the owner of the air units allowed to reshuffle the placement of the air units after said AA fire.

Craig

[Mark]

Right, I understand the question (I think  )
Essentially, after AA fire is over, planes thought of as being unsupported may shift to being full support units if planes were shot down.

The only thing that makes the plane unsupported is that the attacker has fewer front line units.  If one of the support planes is shot down, one of the unsupported planes would automotically be allowed to support fully.

So, place the air units on the chart in either supported or unsupported roles.  Defender picks his targets and rolls his AA (probably picking the toughest or most expensive air units).  Assuming he shoots down one of these fully supported air units, at the conclusion of AA fire, the attacker would shift one of his planes from its unsupported role to a normal support unit role.

Is that clear? I will spell that out in the rules more clearly as well

[Yoper]

That is what I was looking for.

It was the interpretation that I put forth and that is what we went with.

I lost a bomber and a stuka!

They were replaced by two fighters in the supporting line up.

Craig

[Mark]

Damn AA guns - I hate it when they do that!  (unless I'm the one with the AA gun - then I'm a genius)

[smckenzie]

I see on the production charts AA units are listed as support units themselves, but this is an error?

AA units can hold/conquer territory unlike Artillery?

Also, an AA unit firing in ground combat allows a Spport unit to fire at full strength?

[smckenzie]

Repeating my previous questions?

I see on the production charts AA units are listed as support units themselves, but this is an error?

AA units can hold/conquer territory unlike Artillery?

Also, an AA unit firing in ground combat allows a Spport unit to fire at full strength?

Also:

AA Guns in fact get to fire just before each land/naval combat round?

What happens with fly over shots when there is also a ground combat invilving those AA guns?

Suppose a german AA gun fires at a bomber passing over, but is also in a ground combat in the same combat phase?

[John D.]

Yes - they can be front line. They can not act as AA and front line in the same turn. Mark can correct me if I am wrong.

[qxxx]

We tried a new rule with AA guns - Either defender or attacker could use AA guns against the opposing aircraft.

With the attacker it is a support piece.

comments
kenb

[Mark]

Would agree - in the advanced version, below, we allow both the attacker and defender to use AA against planes in battles.  I think it makes sense to only allow the defender to use them as front line units - good house rule and clarification - thanks!