Author Topic: D-Day invasions (long)  (Read 8028 times)

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derdiktator

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D-Day invasions (long)
« on: July 17, 2006, 03:18:24 PM »
Since you have recently had the experience of playing the Western Allies ...can Germany win the race and make the Allies start over by kicking them off the continent?

Interesting question, and probably not surprisingly, I have thoughts on the matter. ;D

Truth to tell, I think against a careful German, a Western Allied D-Day invasion is a tricky problem.  I have seen the Allies over and over again blow a D-Day invasion because of inadequate preparation.  When a D-Day has worked, it is often because of inadequate response on the part of the Germans or because they were already too far down in the game and the invasion was just a coup de grace anyway. 

Assuming good European Axis play, my rule of thumb is that the Western Allies need something like 15 to 18 transports available before making any serious attempt to go ashore in say 1943 or 1944. About eight transports are needed for shuttling builds from the US while the rest are needed for the invasion and subsequent build-up.

The Allies also MUST have something like at least twice as many troops within two sea zones of the beachhead as they can max carry in the invasion transports. In other words, 15 to 20 transports worth of troops need to be in 'inventory' (say two-dozen infantry and 20 tanks) and this needs to be above and beyond what is landed in the first wave.  Less than these quantities (let alone much less) and I think the Germans can often get a pretty good chance of smashing the invasion (and which would rate to set the Allies back a good year).

The Allies also almost certainly need air dominance if not in fact air superiority (those transports are just too vulnerable otherwise). I wonder if Mark still remembers the time I had 19 German fighters to his 11 Allied, chasing off his transports and thereby isolating the beachhead from further reinforcement...  ;D

If the Allies don't have the requisite depth of troops ready-to-hand near the beachhead they tend to run out of troops the third or fourth turn of build-up (and which is the usual mistake they seem to make when a game gets this far).  At that point, they have to start strategic moving transports back and forth between US/Britain and the beachhead, with transports now only delivering troops every other turn instead of every turn and with some of them actually going empty for lack of troops.  The consequent loss of build-up tempo can give the Germans dominance over the build-up. 

The Germans need to rail in a large fraction of armor and artillery to do this right, and which should be a no-brainer if they can see the Allies have inadequate depth.  When the timing is right, they strategic back every Axis plane in Europe to neutralize Allied air power and then quite possibly you can scratch one beachhead (and which probably has no retreat options...).  Of course such a German reaction does take tremendous pressure off the Eastern Front and for which Uncle Joe Stalin will no doubt be grudgingly appreciative.  Meanwhile though, the Allies have just lost a pile of irreplaceable troops.

I really like this aspect of the game (a Western D-Day).  It often does not come up, but when it does, the game indeed seems to reproduce the Allied historical problem of having sufficient landing craft and the difficulty of winning the battle of the build-up.

Oh, and one last thing: Guess why as the US player I always max on tank production starting right at Pearl Harbor?  I suspect that the pile of tanks might be the only thing capable of standing between massed panzers and an annihilated beachhead.

dd

John D.

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Re: D-Day invasions (long)
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2006, 04:20:13 AM »
So what about this scenario:

Germans don't build subs to harass the Allies and use the money to build a defense/counter attack up in France/Italy.

The Allies come in with 15 transports - lets say 20 troops and 5 armor. Say they lose 2 units on the landing. - Will that be enough- assuming another 10-12 transports reinforcing the invasion area during the next turn?

Do you like building subs in place of ground product?

John

derdiktator

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Re: D-Day invasions (long)
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2006, 09:37:51 AM »
I have to admit that Germans building for a counter-attack to wipe out the D-Day invasion is a tempting strategy.  It sure would be fun if nothing else, what with the pile of troops which that implies.

The number of troops the Allies land the first turn is not really the issue. In general, I think the problem for the Allies is not getting ashore, but one of staying there after a turn or three of build-up (this assumes of course that the game is running tight).  The math is that each turn the Germans can rail some 15 troops, plus walk over another say 6-to-10 from Ruhr builds and from elsewhere. After say two or three turns of this, the Germans have potentially four to six dozen troops, a large fraction of which is good stuff, say tanks and artillery (this assumes things can be stripped from the Eastern Front).  This means the Allies have to be pumping in a good 8-10 troopships a turn just to stay competitive, let alone developing enough offensive capability to actually defeat the Germans. It's for this reason that I think the Allies have to have a seemingly excessive 'inventory' of troops ready-to-hand to feed the beachhead.

I don't think there's anyway that the Germans can afford to keep a large tank/artillery/infantry counter-attack force sitting idle in France waiting for the D-Day thing to happen (given the pressures of the East).  But, then again, if you don't build those subs... who knows. 

With your invasion scenario (20 Allied infantry and five tanks), the Germans would need at least say 10 tanks, 15, and 5 artillery in Paris, plus enough air to neutralize the Allies for two rounds of combat.  Pretty expensive just to keep sitting around waiting; and then the loss ratio after an immediate counter-attack in this scenario isn't that favorable to the Germans (I make out it's about 1:1).

It would be an interesting German strategy to try.  It should sure complicate Allied invasion difficulties.

dd


RandR

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Re: D-Day invasions (long)
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2006, 04:27:07 AM »
This sounds like something to be tried at GENCON?

Mark

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Re: D-Day invasions (long)
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2006, 07:00:39 AM »
I think it is important to keep at least a moderate defense of France from 1942 onwards.  Enough to deter or elliminate say anything less than a 6 transport invasion.

Deterence is key - once the Allies are on shore, you can kiss progress in Russia good bye.

In too many games, the Germans under-defend France once they have taken it.  The 3 Vicotry Points in Paris are worth a lot more than a bunch of Russian territory and become critical if the Germans are trying to win the game in 43 or 44.

Mark


RandR

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Re: D-Day invasions (long)
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2006, 03:43:55 PM »
Rommel had the correct solution to stop the D-Day invasion. STOP THEM ON THE BEACH! Fortunately, the Germans made enough errors, one strategic & fatal error of NOT committing the resources because of the FUHRER'S great insight, & most importantly-a lot of our fathers & grandfathers were heroes & survivors some 60 years ago. This game allows the AXIS the ability to do the job without the FUHRER's great insight. So, the allies MUST have & MUST pump a continuous supply of material for several turns to have a successful D-Day invasion. Fortunately for us hindsight is always 20/20