Author Topic: Naval Amphib Questions  (Read 9794 times)

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Darkman

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Naval Amphib Questions
« on: July 22, 2015, 01:41:37 AM »
Very interesting , i would have thought that beach landings (+deciding where to land) and para drops actually happen in the combat Phase (and such units still can decide if they land / para drop or stay on sea / air and abort the mission) so the battle is not triggerd in the chit drawing phases and the units that reinforce the territory are not automatically reserves?


Did i thought wrong?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 02:02:30 AM by Darkman »

Mark

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Re: Naval Amphib Questions
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2015, 02:50:41 AM »
Hi Darkman -
Units are picked up, conveyed, and dropped off by transports all in the same chit draw.  All battles get marked during the chit draw / movement phase (no new battles happen on the combat phase - that is only for resolution).

Also - all air units move during the chit draw / movement phase (including paratroopers).  Planes can't wait to move until the combat phase. . .so, the paratroopers would also have to fly to the destination on one of the movement chits as well.

In the example above, the allies moved their fleet I think on the second to last chit, which was their '0 - all move'.  The fleet picked up the invasion force moved off the coast of Brittany and dropped them off in Brittany - triggering a battle.  The battle marker was placed and units were moved to the battleboard.

The Germans still had their '1' chit left, drew it, and were able to reinforce the battle (that was already set up) with Schorner and the troops he was able to take with him from Normandy.

Darkman

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Re: Naval Amphib Questions
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2015, 03:00:36 AM »
Ok mh this makes landing a lot easier..

I always thought if the enemy territory is occupied the "beach landing force" has to wait until the combat phase and then decide Option on which shore they land and paratroopers can "stay in air and do not para drop their cargo, like other planes they always have the option to stay in "air"

And what happens to the "beach landing" marked territory when on a later movement chit and axis fleet or air force moves into the zone to trigger a naval battle / air vs ship battle?
And what if they defeat the allied naval force?
 
I would say according to the rulebook the units are not dropped off and are still on the transports? But reading your answer it reads like they already landed, if the axis fleet / planes moved into the sea zone before the allied force moves into the sea zone?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 03:38:34 AM by Darkman »

Mark

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Re: Naval Amphib Questions
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2015, 04:30:13 AM »
Moved from the After Action Reports as this needs to get hashed out.
Good points and clearly there is an inconsistency that needs to be resolved in the written rules.

How we have played, is that the battle is declared and set up.  Anything that moves in after is moved in as reserve. 

If a naval/air battle happens in the sea zone, it is resolved before the land battle.  If a transport is sunk, its contents are removed prior to the land battle.  If the invading naval force has to retreat, the amphibious units have to retreat with the navy and so no land battle takes place.

I do like the consistency that battles are set up on the chit draw / move phase.  I prefer not to make a different case for an amphib.  I also like the movement of reserves into an already existing battle.  It feels right: Do you put all your forces on the beaches, or do you try and react to an invasion?

I think, it needs to be worded that the amphib is 'declared' on the chit they are moved and the battle is set up, but if something interdicts the navy during the resolution of a naval battle (if any), before land combat resolution, it may prevent the amphib from taking place.   It has not caused any problems when we play, but it needs to be solid in the rules.  It needs to be discussed and worked out a bit more.

John D.

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Re: Naval Amphib Questions
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2015, 04:56:56 AM »
It seems to feel right that the units are dropped off on the chit draw and if ships come in on a later chit draw - the naval battle occurs - possibly leaving the attacking units stranded. The Axis ships and planes would have needed to be in the zone already to possibly stop the "landing". What do you all think?
That would be consistent with other chit draw dynamics

Mark

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Re: Naval Amphib Questions
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2015, 06:13:56 AM »
One clarification that Darkman points out that I am adding to the rules is:

Quote
15.0.4 Transport planes move during the movement phase, but paratroopers are not dropped until the 1st ground combat round of the combat phase. Enemy fighters may intercept and attack transport planes (if they are able to move on a later chit draw or on the air unit reaction phase) before the transport planes drop their paratroopers into a battle or into an undefended enemy territory. Only one round of air-to-air combat is fought before the paratroopers are dropped (for the first round of ground combat, if any).

Mark

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Re: Naval Amphib Questions
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2015, 06:29:54 AM »
It may be easiest to change the way we play to the way Darkman interprets the rules - units conducting an Amphib to not disembark from transports until the end of the naval combat phase.  This may make amphibs much tougher, though. . .

Darkman

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Re: Naval Amphib Questions
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2015, 06:38:28 AM »
It may be easiest to change the way we play to the way Darkman interprets the rules - units conducting an Amphib to not disembark from transports until the end of the naval combat phase.  This may make amphibs much tougher, though. . .

A bit tougher fighting on the beaches yeah , but as axis you have to "guess" where the allies will land so you have to secure all beaches and not throw everything into one territory

In the english channel and next to it you have always 3 possiblities. Since you decide in the combat phase after all naval battles are resolved, you can decide.. and if there is no good option you still can delay the invasion plans and say it was only a training ^^.

I think the way i interpreted it works also well with the naval battle / naval artillery support for beach landings.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 07:27:59 AM by Darkman »

Mark

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Re: Naval Amphib Questions
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2015, 08:22:41 AM »
Let me know if this works:

16.0 Amphibious Assaults
16.0.1 Amphibious assaults are conducted when units are landed via transports into enemy owned territories. (Note: It is not an amphibious assault if units are transported from one friendly territory to another).

16.0.2 Front line units in an amphibious assault must be landed via a landing craft. Each landing craft may carry one infantry type unit (or 1 DD tank). Landing craft used to land front line units are expended (removed from play) at the conclusion of the 1st round of combat if there is a battle. If there is no combat (i.e. there are no enemy front-line units in the territory the landing craft lands units), the landing craft are not expended.  Landing craft are only expended if there is a battle.

16.0.3 Non-front line units do not need to be landed by landing craft and are moved normally to the invasion site (capacity 3 for infantry or 2 for other) are placed in reserve and reinforce a battle normally.  Note: if landing on an enemy controlled shore containing no enemy front-line units, the attacker still needs to have at least one front line unit in order to land (can be either landed via landing craft or a paratrooper), but there is no battle.

16.0.4 When conducting an amphibious attack on an enemy occupied territory, units do not disembark transports and attack the land territory until the end of the first combat phase that there are no enemy surface combat units in the sea zone the amphibious invasion is being launched (i.e. all enemy surface combat naval units have either been eliminated, returned, or have retreated). Therefore, at least one round of air to ship and submarine combat is also resolved before troops disembark.

16.0.5 When conducting an amphibious invasion against an unoccupied enemy territory, units disembark from their transports immediately on the chit draw the transports moved and do not wait for the combat phase.

16.0.6 The amphibious attacking player does not need to indicate which land territory he plans to invade (if more than one is adjacent to the sea zone the transports are in) until the units disembark from the transports.

16.0.7 If a naval battle proceeds an amphibious battle, the attacking (amphibious assaulting) player may attack with some of his naval units and reserve others to support the amphibious assault (by conducting shore bombardment). Naval units may not both conduct naval combat and support the amphibious assault.

16.0.8 For naval battles where the defender has only air units attacking an enemy naval amphibious invasion force, only one round of air to ship combat is fought against naval units before the ground combat (amphibious assault) units are landed. Air units may then continue to attack naval units on subsequent rounds of combat, but their cargo is considered disembarked after the first round.

Darkman

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Re: Naval Amphib Questions
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2015, 09:19:48 AM »
Let me know if this works:

16.0 Amphibious Assaults
16.0.1 Amphibious assaults are conducted when units are landed via transports into enemy owned territories. (Note: It is not an amphibious assault if units are transported from one friendly territory to another).

16.0.2 Front line units in an amphibious assault must be landed via a landing craft. Each landing craft may carry one infantry type unit (or 1 DD tank). Landing craft used to land front line units are expended (removed from play) at the conclusion of the 1st round of combat if there is a battle. If there is no combat (i.e. there are no enemy front-line units in the territory the landing craft lands units), the landing craft are not expended.  Landing craft are only expended if there is a battle.

16.0.3 Non-front line units do not need to be landed by landing craft and are moved normally to the invasion site (capacity 3 for infantry or 2 for other) are placed in reserve and reinforce a battle normally.  Note: if landing on an enemy controlled shore containing no enemy front-line units, the attacker still needs to have at least one front line unit in order to land (can be either landed via landing craft or a paratrooper), but there is no battle.

16.0.4 When conducting an amphibious attack on an enemy occupied territory, units do not disembark transports and attack the land territory until the end of the first combat phase that there are no enemy surface combat units in the sea zone the amphibious invasion is being launched (i.e. all enemy surface combat naval units have either been eliminated, returned, or have retreated). Therefore, at least one round of air to ship and submarine combat is also resolved before troops disembark.

16.0.5 When conducting an amphibious invasion against an unoccupied enemy territory, units disembark from their transports immediately on the chit draw the transports moved and do not wait for the combat phase.

16.0.6 The amphibious attacking player does not need to indicate which land territory he plans to invade (if more than one is adjacent to the sea zone the transports are in) until the units disembark from the transports.

16.0.7 If a naval battle proceeds an amphibious battle, the attacking (amphibious assaulting) player may attack with some of his naval units and reserve others to support the amphibious assault (by conducting shore bombardment). Naval units may not both conduct naval combat and support the amphibious assault.

16.0.8 For naval battles where the defender has only air units attacking an enemy naval amphibious invasion force, only one round of air to ship combat is fought against naval units before the ground combat (amphibious assault) units are landed. Air units may then continue to attack naval units on subsequent rounds of combat, but their cargo is considered disembarked after the first round.

Sounds good

John D.

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Re: Naval Amphib Questions
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2015, 10:00:13 AM »
 Sounds good as well.


georgemak1

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Re: Naval Amphib Questions
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2015, 09:30:49 PM »
Let's make sure I got this right. a) When an amphibious assault is taking place and there is already enemy naval units  in the sea zone, you need to win the upcoming naval battle (4 rounds)before you proceed with the invasion that's an easy one. b)When they are only planes in the area that's being amphibious assaulted or air units move react on a later chit draw, the invasion force disembarkes after one round of air battle. c) when enemy naval forces move into the sea zone in a later chit draw there still 4 rounds of naval battle taking place (which you need to come out victorious) for the invasion forces to disembarke from the transports.
And what happens when you try to transport units into a friendly port,  via a naval transport, and enemy naval forces move into the sea zone on a later chit, do the units on the transport disembarke right away, or they will have to wait after the naval battle has taken place and all the enemy ships were sunk, returned or retreated? It usually happens in North Africa and Norway .

John D.

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Re: Naval Amphib Questions
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2015, 11:31:27 AM »
So first weekend of October looks good for me - can we shoot for that?

georgemak1

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Re: Naval Amphib Questions
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2015, 12:50:36 PM »
I'm in for that too, confirm with others, I'll buy my plane tickets ASAP

John D.

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Re: Naval Amphib Questions
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2015, 05:10:43 AM »
Let's make sure I got this right. a) When an amphibious assault is taking place and there is already enemy naval units  in the sea zone, you need to win the upcoming naval battle (4 rounds)before you proceed with the invasion that's an easy one. b)When they are only planes in the area that's being amphibious assaulted or air units move react on a later chit draw, the invasion force disembarkes after one round of air battle. c) when enemy naval forces move into the sea zone in a later chit draw there still 4 rounds of naval battle taking place (which you need to come out victorious) for the invasion forces to disembarke from the transports.
And what happens when you try to transport units into a friendly port,  via a naval transport, and enemy naval forces move into the sea zone on a later chit, do the units on the transport disembarke right away, or they will have to wait after the naval battle has taken place and all the enemy ships were sunk, returned or retreated? It usually happens in North Africa and Norway .
Everything you mention is correct. Units moving into friendly owned or unoccupied enemy owned areas are disembarked on the chit draw - so it is immediate.