Complex sea battle (Submarines)

[Darkman]

This time with submarines 
Sorry but the rule is kicking me

A axis submarines moving into the North atlantic (6 spaces) for an startegic attack on convoys 
Then a british destroyer is moving into that sea zone.. want to hunt that submarine..

What happens?

Is this now a Naval battle ? The Destroyer does a hunter killer attack and then submarine has the opportunity to defend if it survives? 
No strategic battle at all?

[John D.]

The destroyer gets to make one HK attack. If it hits - the sub is sunk and does NOT get to fire back or conduct a convoy attack. If it survives it can conduct a convoy attack OR return fire on the destoyer. Not both. Regardless - all of the action will last one round only.

[Darkman]

So just to clarify,

Q1: if a british submarine move into a sea zone or unfortified harbor where a single italian transporter is and declaring an attack.  And then on axis chit draw some italian destroyer are moving into that sea zone.. they can't help the transporter with ASW because it is too late? Or can they help because also ASW in reserve is counted?


Q2: If the italian decides to move out of the Harbor into another sea Zone.. the destroyer can't help because they were not moving with him?

[John D.]

1) So - remember - in a naval battle, the subs shoot when all ships disengage. Whatever DDs and air units are left in the zone can perform Fleet ASW against enemy subs, whether they were on the front line or in reserve. In this case, since there is no naval battle, you go right to the sub phase. If the transport doesn't move - the DDs can protect.

2) If the transport moves out of the sea zone - the subs can snapfire with no ASW protection since the DDs were not with the transport to begin with (thus providing escort)

[Darkman]

Can you also snapfire when someone enters the zone or only when he leaves? Just have to ask said again because i read it from you . :-) but

Rulebook writes
"7.1.1 Units only get to snap fire when an enemy unit is attempting to leave the sea zone they occupy.  If enemy units enter the sea zone and do not leave, combat can be resolved normally on the combat phase. "

[John D.]

Only when units leave a zone. They could enter then leave (like moving through a sea zone)- then you get the option to snapfire.

[Gargantua]

Is there one die roll per british destroyer?  Or just one die roll for an entire HK pack, per submarine?

This was a question that arose in our group, as a large group of destroyers and ships (10+) seemed to keep missing the one single die roll to eliminate the subs.

[Mark]

HK attacks are per ship or plane. . .so, if you have three destroyers, you get three dice (needing a 1).

Convoy or fleet ASW is different.  You add up the total number of points you have defensing the convoy and roll on a table against every sub attacking the convoy.  So: if two subs are attacking the convoy, you would roll 2 dice to defend the convoy.

Each destroyer / plane can either be HK or be assigned convoy escort - ships don't get to attack twice.  So, as the Allied player, you need to decide if your destroyer is going to be off chasing subs and attack once with its HK # needed to kill or is going to sit back and escort the convoy and defend on the ASW table.

[georgemak1]

Can you place subs at the engaged task force in naval battles, and at the final sub round do returned subs participate? Also do returned destroyers and planes add their fleet saw vaule to the defense of the task force?

[Mark]

This is not explicitly called out in the rules - so I will need to clarify:  Subs may not be placed in the engaged task force - only battleships, battlecruisers, cruisers, and destroyers.  Subs are reserved only for the submarine round at the end of combat.

Therefore, subs can not be returned prior to the sub combat round. 
With respect to other naval & air units, see 13.7.2:

13.7.2 Once submarine combat is declared, the opposing player may roll for ASW warfare against each engaged sub.  Total the number of surviving destroyers and air units in the sea zone (do not include those that were returned or eliminated in combat.  If planes retreated from the battle, their ASW value is counted) and consult the Fleet ASW table to roll ASW against each enemy sub. Once both sides have defended with their ASW, any surviving subs that were not returned may pick any naval unit target and attack – including naval units that were damaged or forced to retreat from combat during any round of naval combat.  Once sub attacks have been resolved (on the 2 combat column) combat is over – there is only one round of sub combat.  Note: Naval leaders (other than U-Boat aces – see 17.6, below) cannot influence submarine combat with tactical re-rolls.