Author Topic: Vichy France and Minor Axis Allies  (Read 6627 times)

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Mission11

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Vichy France and Minor Axis Allies
« on: November 17, 2013, 07:36:20 AM »
I am confused about what occurs when France falls to the Axis.  For example, when Paris falls and is occupied by supplied Axis troops, the rules state where all the Vichy infantry are placed (except for Vichy France, all are in the Middle East, Africa, and Corsica - none in France itself).  What happens to the vacant French territories (Champaign, Normandy, Marseilles, etc.).  Do they become German and begin to provide German production points once occupied by a German unit?  What about allied units still in France?  For example, when Paris falls, if Allied troops remain in Normandy, can they remain without resulting in a declaration of war against Vichy France (since Vichy troops are not placed in Normandy)?  The rules are unclear.

Also, the fall of France results in the activation of the Axis Minors.  Can they jointly participate in attacking Greek territories with Italian troops and as long as Italian troops enter each captured Greek territory, Italian morale increases?  Or, must Italy attack each Greek territory unassisted by Axis Minors to benefit from the morale boost?

Bulgaria has a production of two.  Why is it not allowed to build troops?  After two seasons, Bulgaria would have 4 pp, theoretically permitting it to build one infantry.

And finally, when an Axis minor captures a production territory, does the territory's full production value become added to the axis, or does its full production value become added to its own economy, and half to Germany?

Thank you!

Mark

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Re: Vichy France and Minor Axis Allies
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2013, 09:06:33 AM »
Hi Mission11  - Thanks for the questions - Your timing is good as we are updating the rules right now and will try to make these things more clear in the update.  Here is how we have been playing the game and the current intention:

1) When France falls:  During the 'determine victory and defeat conditions', remove all French ground and air units from the board.  Roll a die for each French naval unit to determine its disposition.  Place Vichy French 2-3 infantry units on the board in Vichy France, the Middle East and Africa per the French country chart.  Vacant (non-Vichy) French territories are empty and owned by whoever occupies them.  So - as the Germans occupy them, they will collect PP for them.  If the Allies occupy them, they will get PP for them.  We have had a few games where the British try to stay in France and fort down in Brittany or somewhere to continue to be a pain to the Germans.  This occupation by allied troops of non-vichy France does not result in a declaration of war by Vichy on the Allies.

2) Axis minors can participate in attacks on Greece and Yugoslavia.  Italy only receives the morale bonus if the attack and occupy Greek territories with only Italian units, however.  If Axis minor or German units help them, then Italy does not receive a morale bonus (It is not easy for Italy to achieve the bonus - taking Crete especially can be difficult for them before they are in the war with the Allies).

3) Note that you should count up all the Axis minor production together ( so treat them as one nationality for production purposes - i.e. Hungary+Romania+Bulgaria+ Finland = 12 or 13 PP).  So, as the Axis minor player, you can use the Bulgarian PP to build Romanian, Hungarian, etc. units.  The reason why Bulgaria does not have a build capacity themselves is that in the war, they did not field that many units, so we do not let them build any additional units - use their PPs to build Romanian or Hungarian units. . .

4) When an axis minor takes an enemy territory (say Odessa in Russia) - the 1PP that the territory is worth can be either added to the Axis Minor's production total (increasing their PP from 12 to 13 for example) or to Germany - Axis player's choice.  While the rules currently say that the nationality that occupies an enemy territory is the nationality that must collect for it - we have played that Axis minor occupied territory can go to German or Axis Minor PP.

Mark

Mission11

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Re: Vichy France and Minor Axis Allies
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2013, 10:09:31 AM »
Thank you Mark.  Very helpful feedback.

Regarding your comments below:

4) When an axis minor takes an enemy territory (say Odessa in Russia) - the 1PP that the territory is worth can be either added to the Axis Minor's production total (increasing their PP from 12 to 13 for example) or to Germany - Axis player's choice.  While the rules currently say that the nationality that occupies an enemy territory is the nationality that must collect for it - we have played that Axis minor occupied territory can go to German or Axis Minor PP.

As the axis player, would it not be most advantageous to provide the production points for a captured territory to the Axis Minors as the total PP value is greater than if providing the production to Germany.  The Axis minors would retain the full PP value, and Germany would receive an additional half of the production on top of that.  I arrived at this calculation by looking at the 1941 set-up and determining that half the Axis Minors total production was included in Germany's PP.

I arrived at the above conclusion by counting the PP value for 1941 Germany (90PP):
1.  75 PP for German held territories
2.  6 PP for Vichy-held territories (1/2 of 12 PP)
3.  6 PP for Minor Axis territories (1/2 of 12 PP)
4.  3 PP for Romanian Oil

Thanks for an amazing game.  This is much better than anything else in the market (the closest in terms of playability and accuracy is HBG's Global War 1939 in my opinion).

Mark

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Re: Vichy France and Minor Axis Allies
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2013, 01:41:02 PM »
OK - so here is the confusion:

When a country is a pro-axis neutral, it gives half of its production to Germany.  So Vichy France would give 6 points to the Germans.  If the Axis trigger a pro-Axis Turkey or Spain, they would each give half of their production (4 each) to Germany.

Once a minor joins the Axis, they no longer give half of their production to Germany.  Rather, they collect all of their income to build units themselves.  So, the Axis minors (Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Finland) collect 12 PP for their territories to spend on their own units and don't provide any PP to Germany.  If a minor takes a territory (from Yugoslavia, Russia, or whoever), the Axis player needs to decide whether they want to collect that captured enemy territory PP for the Axis minors or for Germany - but they don't both get PP for it.

Germany's 1941 at start income reflects:
50PP for normal 1939 at start Germany
4 PP for captured Polish territories
5 PP for captured Danish and Norwegian territories
3PP for Swedish Iron ore
6PP for Holland and Belgium
12 PP for occupied France
6 PP for pro-Axis minor Vichy France
3PP for Romanian Oil
and 1 PP "saved" from a hypothetical previous turn