Author Topic: Some thinking on Naval Movement  (Read 7544 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Mark

  • Administrator
  • General
  • *****
  • Posts: 1383
    • View Profile
Some thinking on Naval Movement
« on: November 15, 2012, 10:13:56 PM »
There has been some discussion in our group that we could do a better job of modeling naval movement for the game.

Essentially, that ships should act a little bit more like planes - in that they need to "land" back at a port at the conclusion of every turn.

Also - that ships should perhaps be able to move through enemy ships, but enemy ships should get an opportunity to interdict and opportunity fire in a similar way that subs do.

Also - that perhaps planes should move on any chit draw, rather than waiting until all the movement is over, and that players should perhaps be able to move air units into sea zones to also opportunity fire at naval units that leave or pass through the sea zone.

Of course these ideas have not been tested or thought through - but I wanted to post them here to get additional smart people thinking on the topic and see if there is perhaps a better way to simulate naval movement than we currently have in the game.

thanks,
Mark

Godleader

  • Major
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
    • View Profile
Re: Some thinking on Naval Movement
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2012, 05:39:12 AM »
Is a super idea.

Mark

  • Administrator
  • General
  • *****
  • Posts: 1383
    • View Profile
Re: Some thinking on Naval Movement
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2013, 08:37:38 PM »
Here are the naval air movement rules we playtested with over the Holidays. . .They worked great!  Thinking about incorporating them in to the core rules for the game.  Please take a read through them and let us know what you think:

In principle:
ALL pieces that do not move strategically get one offensive action per combat phase (i.e., fight in a multi-round battle, , strat warfare, deliver amphib attacks or do a single snapfire).You get as many defensive actions (ASW, AA) as your opponent dictates by his attacks against you.

ZOCs are no longer part of the game.

Air units move on any chit draw
think of them all like '4' initiative units
Air units that do not move on any chit draw may react adjacent after all chits have been drawn (during the air react phase)

Air units may move to interdict sea zones and ports
For example, an air unit based in London may fly on the first chit draw to the English channel and interdict (aka 'snap fire') movement through the channel. There are no ZOCs – you only interdict the space you are in.

Ships move Tactical of 4 (Transports 2) and Strategic of 8 spaces in the European Theater and 3 Tactical (Transports 2) and strategic of 6 spaces in the Pacific Theater
You must move tactical to engage enemy ships, launch planes that participate in battles or conduct amphibious attacks.
Otherwise you can move strategic.
If naval units are moving onto or off of the Pacific theater map, they use European movement rates (4 tactical or 8 strategic) regardless of which theater they started movement from.
You can move strategic through ZOCs (remember they don't matter anymore) and even THROUGH ENEMY COMBAT SHIPS AND PLANES.
•   If moving strategically, you basically forfeit your capability to attack anything.
•   If moving strategically through enemy planes interdicting movement, you get to fire AA before they bomb you (carriers moving strategically keep their planes on the deck).
•   If moving strategically through subs, you get your ASW before they pick their target to torpedo.
•   If naval units are attempting to move strategically through a sea zone occupied by enemy surface combat naval units – the defending enemy naval units may “snap fire” at any ships designated as a front line ship in the strategically moving task force.  The targeted strategically moving front line naval unit does not get to fire back.
•   If moving through enemy ships that are snap firing at you, the moving player gets to select what ships are screening (front line) and which ones are screened (must have equal or more ships screening that screened).  The snap firer gets to pick which front line screening vessel to shoot at.  Returned and damaged ships stop.  The rest of the ships can stop as well or continue, but no return fire.
•   Nothing forces the defender to snap fire, he may elect to not snap fire at you and save his movement and combat for later (assuming he has not moved yet).
•   If moving strategically, you only get to fight if you are defending yourself.
•   Strategically moved naval units do not impede enemy units from moving through them (they can not initiate combat).  Strategically moved ships do not affect the tracing of supply for enemy territories (Enemy supply can be traced right through territories occupied by ships that moved strategically). For example, if the Brits strategically move their fleet into the Eastern Med, the Italians could tactically move right through them.
Tactical movement
Ships move tactically 4 spaces.  Transports move 2
Ships can move tactically and then snap fire anything that moves into their sea zone.  Tactical movement means you are still active and can do combat and affect supply.
If you want to attack something, launch your planes at something or invade something - you need to move tactical.  Otherwise you can move strategic.

Moving through sea zones with enemy surface combat ships
When moving tactically, you can also move through enemy sea zones and 'drop' ships to engage the enemy ships in the sea zone.  You have to drop equal or greater number of ships to block and engage the enemy ships you are trying to move through.  When blocking and engaging you have to move tactically.  This tactic allows you to move through the sea zone with other ships and not be snap fired against.  Combat against the engaged blocked ships is resolved on the combat phase at the end of the turn.
Alternatively, as per the strategic movement rule above, you can move strategically through enemy ships, but you forefeit your ability to shoot back and the enemy ships that is snap firing gets to choose its target (or the front line screening ships).

Snap Firing and Combat
If you are moving tactically, you either get to fight in a battle or you get to opportunity fire (snap fire) at something trying to move out of the sea zone your unit is in.  You only get to initiate combat once, however, so if you snap fire, you are done (unless someone attacks you on a later draw – you can always defend yourself).

Planes can move their range and snap fire at anything that tries to leave the sea zone they are in.  You need to commit your planes to the sea zone – they are like on patrol and ready to interdict anything that tries to leave the sea zone.  If ships are in the sea zone that you move to snap fire, but do not leave – or – if ships move into the sea zone but do not leave – there is no snap fire.  However, planes would just attack these units (if they choose) at the conclusion of the movement phase during regular combat.

Planes could move tactically (their range) to a sea zone with ships in port, for example, and bomb those ships if they try to leave port (with the port attack bonus).  If the ships decide not to leave port, the place could just attack the ships in port then during the regular combat phase.

Planes that fly into a sea zone containing an enemy port can choose either to interdict movement out of the sea zone or interdict movement out of the port.  If interdicting the port, land based AA can also be used in the port defense.  Interdiction of subs at sea are handled on the hunter-killer table.  Interdiction of subs in port are treated like any other air attack against ships in port (with the bonus) - so very effective if bombing subs at port (that are not in a u-boat pen).

Air-to-air combat and AA are resolved before bombing – just like any combat. 

Note - You only get to snap fire when an enemy unit is attempting to leave the sea zone.  If they enter the sea zone and do not leave, combat can be resolved normally on the combat phase. 

Naval units moved into a sea zone containing a large fortified port can only attack the enemy naval units if they leave port.  If the port is not a large fortified port, you may snap fire at the ported enemy units when they try and leave the sea zone or just attack them on the combat phase if they choose not to move (as the port does not defend them).

Ships retreated, damaged or retuned form combat, retreat from the battle but STAY IN THE SEA ZONE.  There is no retreating out of the sea zone.  Ships and planes returned or retreated from a battle are flipped on their side.  They do not interdict movement or supply for the remaining of the turn.

Example:  A British fighter in London moves to the English Channel to interdict potentially any movement through the channel.  On the next chit draw, the German player flies a fighter from Normandy into the channel and moves a destroyer (strategically) from the Baltic Sea through the channel to the Bay of Biscay.  The British player elects to snap fire.  First the British player needs to decide to go air to air with the German fighter or not.  If he goes air to air, the destroyer can just keep moving and we resolve the air to air combat.  If the British player elects to bypass the German fighter and bomb the destroyer, first the German fighter would get to shoot at the bypassing British plane, then the destroyer would get to shoot its AA and then the British plane would get to bomb the destroyer.  Lets say the British plane scores a return.  The Geman destroyer is stuck and stays in the sea zone.  On a later chit draw, the German player elects to move a cruiser strategically from the Baltic through the channel to the Bay of Biscay.  Since everything in the channel space has already attacked, there is no interdiction and the cruiser moves freely to the Bay of Biscay.  On an even later chit draw, the British player tactically moves a battleship into the English Channel.  At the end of the movement phase, the Battleship could attack the German destroyer again, if the battleship misses, the destroyer could fire back (as it was attacked and therefore gets to defend itself).

ALL NAVAL UNITS (Surface combat ships as well as submarines) may move strategically (8 spaces – or 6 in the Pacific) and conduct strategic warfare attacks.

Surface ships may not move strategically and attack surface ships or snap fire – if going to snap fire or attack surface ships, they have to move tactically (4 spaces).

Naval units may move strategically and attack port supply centers as well.

Note that ships that move strategically do not control the sea zone the end movement in.  Enemy ships may freely move through spaces occupied by strategically moved naval units and supply is traced through these sea zones as if the enemy naval units were not there (it is a “hit and run” strategic attack – not sticking around to control the sea zone and interdict movement).

Likewise, surface ships may move strategically and defend convoy zones (and themselves) with ASW.  They may not move strategically and attack enemy submarines or ships, they can only do this if they move tactically.

Essentially, surface ships have an advantage over subs when snap-firing – as the moving player does not get to defend themselves.  One advantage the moving player has, however, is that they can designate font line and screened ships when moving through an enemy sea zone.  Enemy surface ships can only snap fire against front line ships while subs and planes can snap fire against any ship in the moving task force.

There is no Hunter Killer phase anymore.

But nothing stops planes and destroyers from moving into sea zone with enemy subs and snap firing at them on the hunter killer table if the subs try to leave the zone (or during the combat phase at the end of the turn if the subs do not move).

Sea zones occupied by combat naval units or planes that were not retreated, returned or moved strategically are marked with a national control marker of the units that occupy the sea zone at the end of the combat phase.  Control of the sea zone inhibits non-combat movement and supply for the opposing side.

On the NCM phase, all naval units must move back to port.

Ships move up to 8 spaces back to any port that is in supply on the NCM phase (6 spaces in the Pacific).  Naval units may only move through interdicted sea zones if there is not a path 8 spaces or less that they can use to get back to port that does not go through an interdicted sea zone.  If Naval units must move back to a port through enemy interdicted sea zones, they must chose a path back to a supplied fortified port that passes through the least number of sea zones.  If no fortified ports are in range, then they must return to the nearest port regardless of size.  Ships in port may not leave port on this phase if they can only leave port by passing through enemy controlled sea zones.

If ships can not move back to a supplied port for some weird reason, they are marked out of supply and may not initiate combat until they are back in supply (i.e. make it back to a supplied port).  Out of supply units may not initiate combat, do not exert ZOCS or block supply, so enemy ships may move right through them strategically.  If attacked, they defend themselves as out of supply units.

All ships and subs moved back to port are marked with an “in port” marker (regardless of the size of the port).

The number of ships that can go “in port” must be less than the port capacity of the port.

Ships in a large fortified port can not be attacked by enemy surface combat ships or subs per the normal rules.  Ships “in port” in smaller ports can be attacked.  Planes attacking ships in either port type get the plane vs. ships in port attack bonus.

Replenishment Ships
In addition to going back to a port, ships may relocate to a sea zone that has a replenishment naval unit in it.  Think of replenishment naval units like mobile ports.  Replenishment naval units have a supply capacity of up to 8 naval units (like an 8 factor port).  There is no port bonus for planes attacking ships that are with replenishment ships.

The US and Japan both start with a replenishment ship.  The US and British can build replenishment ships.  The Japanese, Germans, and Italians can only build replenishment ships once they are collecting at least 8 PP from oil centers on the board.  Replenishment ships cost 4+4 PP to build (like transports).  Replenishment ships take 2 hits to sink.

When at a supplied port, the owning player may ‘load’ a replenishment ship with up to 8 supply points that can be used to resupply ships as sea.  Each supply point loaded on a replenishment ship costs 1PP. Use chips stacked up under on on top of the replenishment ship piece to represent the number of supply points the replenishment ship is carrying.  At the end of the non-combat movement phase, every ship located with a replenishment ship at sea costs 1 supply point (therefore, each fully loaded replenishment ship can resupply up to 8 ships located with it at the end of the non-combat movement phase).  In order to get more supply points for future operations, the replenishment ship needs to return to port and re-load more supply points.


Checking supply
On the checking supply phase, territories can not trace supply through a sea zone marked with an enemy control marker.

We are marking ownership of sea zones with control markers (essentially any sea zone that has a surface combat unit that did not move strategically, is returned or retreated will ‘own’ the sea zones and interdict the enemy’s ability to trace supply through the sea zone).  Naval units must move back to a port on the NCM through the least number of enemy interdicted sea zones that they can.

NOTE: This allows planes and naval combat units to cut islands out of supply by moving tactically to the sea zone the island is in.  The Brits and Italians can fight for the control of sea zones around Malta if they wish to keep it in or knock it out of supply.

Merchant Raiders

German merchant raiders act as special replenishment ships for German submarines (and are the only naval unit that does not need to return to port to supply itself on the NCM phase).  Up to three German subs may ‘port’ and resupply at a merchant raider (for free – no PP cost).  The Merchant raider must be on its neutral control marker side to replenish submarines.

Attacking ports to interdict supply
Sea zones containing ports may be attacked strategically to interdict supply being traced through them. Sea zones containing ports can be attacked in the same way as strategic attacks against convoy zones.  Every hit reduces the port’s supply capacity by one point for the turn.

For example, The Axis are tracing 10 points of supply through the Tripoli port for their units in North Africa.  A British sub attacks the Tripoli port sea zone and inflicts 3 points of economic damage, reducing the number of supply points the Axis units in North Africa can trace through Tripoli for the turn to 7.  When checking supply at the end of the mechanized movement phase, Axis units in North Africa may need to be marked out of supply for the turn.

The Italian convoy zone space in the Med is only used for the Axs to keep track of the number of supply points they have in North Africa.  It may not be attacked economically and only represents a ‘holding box’ for the Axis to keep track of the North Africa port supply points.

Example of strategic movement to attack enemy convoy zones and combat:
A German fleet of a battleship, cruiser and a destroyer moves from the Baltic to a North Atlantic convoy zone on the last chit draw of the turn. The Germans move through a destroyer off the coast of England on their way to the convoy zone that is occupied by another British destroyer and carrier with plane.  Since the Germans are strategically moving, as they pass through the British destroyer off the coast of England, the British destroyer decides to snap fire and picks the Battleship to interdict (since it does not get to fire back as it is strategically moving vs. a snap fire).  The destroyer fires and scores a return.  The battleship stops and remains in the sea zone.  The German player could elect to leave other surface ships in the sea zone to help protect the battleship from attacks during the combat phase, but elects not to.  The British destroyer is flipped on it side as it expended its one attack for the turn.

The remaining German Cruiser and destroyer move into the convoy zone.  There is no snap fire as the Germans are not passing through the zone.  The Germans can not initiate surface combat as they moved strategically.  On the combat phase, IF the British destroyer decides to attack the fleet, it has to engage the whole German fleet and the German fleet could defend itself - (because this is not snap fire, it is attacking enemy naval units that moved strategically on the combat phase).  The British decide not to attack with their destroyer but only attack with the swordfish on their carrier.  The Brits choose to attack the cruiser, it survives the AA and inflicts a return on it - the cruiser remains in the sea zone but is flipped on its side and can not do economic damage.  The remaining German destroyer attacks the convoy zone with a d3 (for the destroyer). 

Back in the sea zone with the returned battleship off of England: On a later chit draw, the Brits decide to move a cruiser into the sea zone with the battleship to attack it on the combat phase.  Since it is an attack on the combat phase against a strategically moved ship (as opposed to a snap fire), the defending battleship gets to fire back if it is not damaged or returned by the Cruiser’s attack (per the existing naval combat rules).

The British cruiser misses the battleship in its attack, so the German battleship gets to fire back and scores a double hit, eliminating the British Cruiser.

On the NCM phase, the Germans have to move back to port (and they must move back to a port through the LEAST NUMBER of interdicted enemy sea zones).  The Germans can't go back the way they came do to that destroyer off of England which controls the sea zone (the destroyer that snap fired against the battleship did not move strategically and was not returned or retreated – so it owns the sea zone that also is occupied by the German battleship). The Germans need to pick a different route free of enemy owned sea zones (if one exists) to get back to a port that is 8 spaces away.

Wolf

  • Major
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
Re: Some thinking on Naval Movement
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2013, 05:17:50 PM »
Okay Guys,

I rather think I like the new rules.  I have been giving some thought to this, ever since I first saw this post.

However, your example raises a question / contradiction:

Quote
In principle:
ALL pieces that do not move strategically get one offensive action per combat phase (i.e., fight in a multi-round battle, , strat warfare, deliver amphib attacks or do a single snapfire).You get as many defensive actions (ASW, AA) as your opponent dictates by his attacks against you.

Your example is about a German Fleet that rushes out (moves strategically) to raid a convoy.  However, that contradicts your basic rule (simply put: move tactically to attack something, strategically if you are not going to).  You specifically list Strategic Warfare as one of the offensive actions you get to take, IF YOU DO NOT MOVE STRATEGICALLY

In the Pacific game I have been messing about with, I have been using Strategic Movement to reposition fleets, to set them up for the next turns offensive actions.

The having to return to port at the end of NCM is a good addition.  It keeps fleets from lurking about for 6-9 months at a time.  It also nips in the bud my cute little tactic of building 5 or 6 Japanese Submarines and parking them off the coast of California. (Dang!)

A suggestion:  It you implement the tender rules for the Germans, add a special unit to the German Build List: The "Milsch Cow".  The German purpose built resupply and refueling submarines.

Just a thought.

Mark

  • Administrator
  • General
  • *****
  • Posts: 1383
    • View Profile
Re: Some thinking on Naval Movement
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2013, 04:19:53 PM »
Sorry for the delayed response. . .it has been a busy January!

So - we are pretty comfortable with the idea of being able to move strategically and still do strategic attacks (and defend convoy zones by moving strategically too).

This works pretty good for submarines to be based in Germany (or later French ports) and still reach out and hit convoy zones.  In the Pacific, US subs based in Australia can reach out and hit Japanese convoy zones as well.

It also gives the ability to the German fleet to sortie and go after convoys too. . .of course the British can move to defend those convoy zones as well which sets up some good naval battles if the Germans risk it.

We were using the German Merchant Raider as both a Raider and a sub replenisher (for us to 3 subs).  This worked in our play tests pretty well and enabled the Germans to still threaten Indian Ocean convoy zones.

So far, I really like these naval rules. . .have not played it enough in the Pacific yet though to make sure it works well there too. . .

Wolf

  • Major
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
Re: Some thinking on Naval Movement
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2013, 10:34:25 AM »
 ???

I don't know.  I think you may be missing the bigger picture here.  I have given this a lot of thought since I first saw this post.

"Better simulation of Naval Movement" may not be the best goal. 

This game is basically a hugely improved version of Axis & Allies, with trade offs of longer play times for improved realism and historical simulation.  That is a balancing act.  I would love to play a big game of Europa, but I don't have an empty airplane hanger for the map or 8 friends who can take a month off to play with me.  So, your two games are an excellent alternative.

When I think of WW2 naval engagements, I think of the Bismarck hiding in the thick fog off of the coast of Norway, trying to avoid the high seas fleet.  Or the desperate battles of UBoats vs convoys and escorts, or the dash of the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst up the English Channel.

In the Pacific, it is a whole 'nother ball of wax.  The constant hunting for the enemy, hoping to spot his carriers before he spotted yours, the battles of Midway, or the nighttime raids up the Slot in Guadalcanal.

What you REALLY want to recreate is the excitement of those kind of things.

In the European and Mediterranean theaters, increasing the movement to 4 makes sense.

I would replace the "Snap Fire" rules with an Interception system, instead.  Say, add the number of ships trying to intercept, to the number of ships trying to "slip by", and roll that on a d12 or less to successfully intercept.  It would be easier to slip past a few pursuers with a few ships than to have two Giant Fleets slip past each other.  You could add planes that can exert a ZOC into the interception sea zone to the roll.  You have one or two places that have modifiers, like the North Sea.

In the Pacific, I would almost suggest a Fleet Marker system, with a certain number of "Dummy" fleets available.  You could have search rolls to determine what is or is not inside of a fleet marker.  I would almost suggest specific long-range search planes added to the mix, like Catalinas and Mavis and Emily Flying boats.

Just some random thoughts...