Rules Questions - Advanced game v5_2012

[Gamer John]

We just received the combined Europe-Asia game and have a number of questions as we start play:
1   Rules state that forts which take 1 hit are replaced by front line infantry.  Are these 2/3 or 3/4 infantry?   
2   Rules state that naval units that receive an "R" result due to enemy air attack move to reserve   
      If R result is received from naval attack, units retreat.  Is this disparate treatment intended?
3   For amphibious attacks, there is no attacking leader for the first round.  Which leader's strategic   
      value is used to bring up reserves for round 2 - use the NL column?
      
4   There are no National Rules for Germany or Japan, that seems odd considering all the detail on the others   
5   Example under Convoy Escort ASW on page 21 appears incorrect.  This would apply if the date was   
      Fall, 1941, prior to US entry.  After entry, box has value of 10 British/10 US/5 Lend-Lease
6   Port supply rules seem to be at odds with Italian Med convoy zone rules.  Italians in North Africa are to count   
      "number of port boxes", put that number of chits in the Med strat box, and that's how many units get supplied.
      Tripoli is a 10 port, and per supply rules that means 10 units could trace supply through there.
      Allies may reduce the number of chits by strat attack.
      Benghazi 5, Tobruk 5, Tripoli 10 - Is that 3 chips or 20?
7   We note that Rumania, Bulgaria & Hungary all enter upon fall of France.   
      Historical dates of entry would be
      Bulg 3/1/41, Rum 11/27/40, Hungary 11/20/40
      Triggers would be a good addition
8   What purpose do U-boat pens serve if submarines have unlimited supply?   
      Place to house subs to enable anti-invasion sortie?
9   Shouldn’t Germans be required to keep significant Eastern garrison until at war with Soviets?   
10   Rules say strategic leadership factor determines how many initial front line units the leader may    
      command in a battle.  This is not repeated in the Combat rules, it's fixed at 6 minimum for land, sea 3.
11   Cannot (easily) replicate Baltic States overrun - this actually was done in days with no fighting.   
      It did not occur till 1941.
12   National production charts are missing some lines   
      France has no AT production line
      Chinese no AT/AA lines
13   Once Holland/France conquered, are their units removed from the Pacific too?   
14   There are no white (winterized) Russian units, can we assume all non-2/3s function as winterized?   
15   When do Russ start to count their added +20 factories - at outbreak of war?   
16   If they build more pre-war, assume they start immediately.   
17   Only 8 locations in USSR have a +, where do the other 2 factories start?   
18   There are partisan units and rules for them in version 1_2012, but no mention of them   
      in version 5_2012 rules.    Do we use the counters?
19   Russian attack on Bessarabia - how does this work and how does it end?   
      Can Rumanians elect not to fight and leave vacant?
20   Are all Russian Far East forces locked in place till war breaks out with Japan or Germany?   
If this would be easier to work with as an attachment, let me know.
Thanks,
John

[Mark]

Thanks for buying the game - and also for such a thorough reading and analysis of the rules.  One of the purposes of this forum is to clarify and also to discuss and suggest rules changes and edits.  We are very happy to update and amend the rules as more and more players suggest better ways of doing things.

Let me try and answer your questions below:

1)  They are replaced by the type of infantry the country is allowed to build.  For the British and US - that would mean 3/4 infantry.  For French, Italian and Soviet, 2/3 infantry.   For the Germans, 3/4 infantry up until Winter 41, but 2/3 infantry thereafter (no matter when the fort was built, after Spring 42 German forts are replaced by 2/3 infantry).

2) In the version of the rules posted it is a disparity, but amending it to a retreat out of the battle to be consistent with other elements of the game is in the current revision.

3) There is no attacking leader attached for the first round, so units are brought up under the NL column.

4) Good point, Germany and Japanese national rules need to be added - would be a good place to clarify the fort rules mentioned above for example.  It will be added in the next revision.

5) You are absolutely correct! Wow, never caught in proof reading. . .Will amend the rule example to Autumn 41.

6) Should be read as the number of port points.  With Benghazi, Tobruk and Tripoli, the Axis should be able to supply 20 units in North Africa (which may be reduced by Malta convoy damage).

7) In order to simplify Axis minor entry, the rules state they join Germany after the fall of France - your interpretation of the rules is correct.  If you prefer to suggest a different event or trigger driven entry for them, we are definitely open to suggestions

8 ) U boat pens - under the current rules, their purpose helps protect u-boats from hunter killer attacks (especially after Spring 1943). U-boats can relocate to a pen in the non-combat phase (say in Brittany) and then move out to attack convoy zones during the regular combat phase (after the hunter killer attack phase).

9) Yes- will be added to the rules under the German national section.  We have always played the Germans need to maintain a token East front garrison of 5 units, but that appears to be a hold over from an older version of the rules that got accidentally removed from the current draft.

10) Will also add it to the combat rules.  It is also on the combat charts.  The side with this higher initiative+strategic rating gets an extra front line unit (7 or 4 for naval).

11) The rules allow the Soviets to do this whenever they wish.

12) There are French AT counters, but upon further reflection and discussion, it was decided the French did not have effective AT guns or deploy the AT-like weapons they had effectively - so they are not allowed to build them and they are not included on their production cards.  Incidentally, the British are not allowed to build them until later in the was either.  Chinese AA units will be added to heir country card, but they are not allowed to build AT units either.

13)  Dutch units remain in the Pacific theater and fight the Japanese as Allied minors once Japan and Britain are at war.  The French units remain as well, but do not fight and are removed once the Japanese enter either of the French Indo-china territories (these will be clarified with the Pacific rules once posted).

14) The Soviet 3/4 Shock units (form the Soviet Far East Strategic reserve) are winterized. 

15) The Soviets start counting up their production and all of their factories normally once they are at war.  Until then, their production is limited per their pre-war production levels on their production card.

16) The Soviets to not get the extra production until they are at war in the current rules draft (I typically build 6-8 Soviet factories prior to the Germans attacking in order to have high enough Soviet production later in the game).

17) 8 start on board and a further 2 start in the Soviet Far East for 10 factories at start.

18) partisans are something we have toyed with, but do not have rules that everyone is happy with and so are not in the current draft rules.  Happy to include them if good suggestions are made.  Currently, the abstract garrison rules of maintaining at least one ground unit in enemy PP territories in order to collect income from the territories reflect to some degree ant-partisan investment.

19) In the current draft, treat Bessarabia as an empty territory that the Russians may occupy whenever.  To simplify things, the Romanians may not deploy units there and there is no combat when Russia occupied it.  Of course this could be made more historical with Romanian trigger rules, but we simplified this territorial acquisition by the Russians as well.

20) East front forces are locked in place until Russia is at war with Japan.  The Far East Strategic reserve is allowed to move in the Autumn 41 turn. 

Sorry for the confusion - hope this helps.

[Gamer John]

Thank you, Mark, for such a prompt and thorough reply.

We do have some follow-up points.

On question 10, the conflict we had seen was between the Leaders Strategic Initiative text on page 4 and the Combat Rules/Combat table.  The latter stipulate that the initial front line maximum is 6 land and 3 naval, plus 1 for superior init+strat rating.  The former says Strat leadership determines the number of initial front line units a leader may command in battle.  We've started play using the 6/3.

Also a follow-up on factories - is any power not yet at war able to use the +2 for factories they build pre-war?  USSR, Italy?

Is USSR/Italy able to benefit from points captured in Pre-War?  Baltic States for instance?

Thanks, we're enjoying this game very much.
John

[Mark]

I will update the text on page 4.  Thanks for catching it.   The correct way to play the game is 6 front line units with the side with greater combined initiative + strategic leadership score receiving an extra front line unit (for ground battles - naval battles get 3 front line units with the side having the better initiative+ strategic rating getting an additional front line unit).

Thanks!
Mark

[Gamer John]

Thanks again, Mark, we’re getting close to a full understanding of current rules I think.  But questions will likely keep popping up as we play.

 Our latest:

1.        Do pre-war Russians treat Balkan States the same as Bessarabia – they can be occupied at any time without resistance?  That would seem historical.

2.       If any of the occupied areas contain PP, do the Russians count those in their pre-war production total?  Your previous answer suggests not.

3.       I guess the same questions would apply to Persia as well.  The area wasn’t actually occupied by USSR pre-war, but resistance was nil.

4.       Then, if any of these territories were not occupied in pre-war, would their “normal” minor activation process begin once war breaks out?

5.       Airfields upgrades have a +2 – but the example does not mention areas that start with zero PP – does that mean such areas cannot contain airfields?

As you may already have surmised, we’re more “historical” gamers than “competitive” ones.  In any game, we’d like the historical path to be one viable option.

Thank you,

John

 

[Mark]

Hi John - sorry for the delay in getting back to you!

1) We give the Baltic States a token army: 1 in each Estonia and Latvia as well as 2 for Lithuania.  The Russians can attack the Baltic States whenever the wish as it is within the Nazi-Soviet Pact border.  True, the Soviets did not take the Baltic States until 1941, but they probably could have occupied them earlier had they decided to do so - so I do not think it is unhistorical to allow them to take them whenever.  As for resistance, think of it as the Baltic States not rolling under a "3" for their defense.  The Danes folded pretty quickly to the Germans historically too, but we give them a 2-3 infantry as well (which if it rolls under a "3" defended Denmark heroically and if t rolls higher than a "3" essentially capitulates without much of a fight - same thing for the Baltic States.

2) Yes - the way the rules are written now - the Russians do not get extra PP for occupied territories prior to being at war with Germany.

3) There are no neutral infantry units for Northern Persia or Bessarabia - but they are like the Baltic States and can be occupied whenever.

4) Yes - but note the Soviets need to occupy Lithuania in order to meet their minimum border requirements on their border with Germany.

5) In the rules under "Air Unit Movement" the rules state: "Up to five air units can be stationed in a territory with a factory symbol. Up to 3 air units can be stationed in a territory with a circled numeric value. Only one air unit can be stationed in a territory with no PP value. Building airbases can increase this value (see Airbase rules)".

So - in a territory with no PP value, building an airfield will increase the air unit capacity from 1 to 3 are units

[Gamer John]

Thanks again, Mark, for the response.  As we’ve played, inevitably a few more questions arose.  Also some comments on play so far.
1. It wasn’t entirely clear which of the Powers could utilize their new factories “pre-war”, so we adopted the convention that those that had a “fixed” allotment of PP could not gain from factories (or any PP conquests) while all others (including Italian which is ½, NOT fixed) could.  Italians got ½ value of factories and conquered PP pre-war.  Is that correct?
2. We could not resolve whether the British naval units starting west of India were released from the start in 1939.  It made sense that they should be, since Britain employed its entire fleet in Europe at that time, but in the end we only released the Australian naval units.
3. We note that the small inset map shows the naval move cost from Australia is 3 when playing Europe-only, however it’s longer when playing the combined game.  India can be a much shorter distance away in the combined game by transporting to/from the west coast.
4. We wrangled over the 3:2 lend-lease, when strategic attack occurs what PP count is being attacked?  We settled on having the sender put in 3 (or more) chits, having the combat, then 2/3 of the remaining chips rounded down go to the receiving power.
5. All of the play variants are aimed at the Euro War, will there be a set of Pacific options added?
Are there other restrictions intended on Finnish forces?  Historically they only re-took Vyborg and were more than reluctant to venture further and creat a long-term Russian enemy.
6. There’s no indication as to when the Russian Far East border forces are released.  Would this occur the turn after Japan begins war with the Western Powers?  Or are they and the Manchurian garrison both locked in place till at war with each other?
7. We’ve already seen in our play through early 1941 that it’s possible for the Germans to build a huge u-boat force very early on, much faster than the British can develop counter-measures.  Actually, the British deployed large numbers of small escort vessels (trawlers then low-cost corvettes) in tandem with the German build-up.  While we realize any generic game such as this inevitably results in skewed production, we’d argue it should not permit ahistorical early builds.
8. Another historical observation, the German army of 1941-42 was still largely dependent on horse-drawn transportation as was the Japanese.  German industry simply could not have geared up enough to produce predominantly mechanized formations for 1941 or 1942.  We think the builds allowed for Panzer & PG in early war are too large, and at-start forces (especially PG) should be pared and replaced by infantry.  With massive mech formations, in our (admittedly only) game, the German forces attacking in Summer ’41 quickly overran all mid-USSR factories before any could be railed out and captured Moscow, while annihilating most of the Russian army.  Since Russian factories could not be designated to relocate before Fall (and only most three could be designated), few would ever get away against an aggressive German player.
9. The German attack in Russia might have been slowed due to aircraft range, however by using paratroops to capture territory on the main combat round, the fighters (and Stukas) could relocate forward during the non-combat move to prepare for the next turn’s blitz.
10. With paratroops so cheap and so valuable, they’ve been used everywhere all the time for key attacks, very ahistorical.  We’ve adopted a rule that on the first combat round, they get the loss priority.  Also the Germans should start with none.  Their combat bonus is unneeded, it’s more than enough that they add to the front line count, can break river lines, can negate amph assault penalties and can leap tall buildings, etc.
11. Another area getting a lot of thought is invasions.  A lot of long-range planning is required in the game to amass enough shipping to provide for possible invasion of Britain (also requiring landing craft construction) plus the Japanese expansion to so many places in a very short space of time when they first attack.  We’re addressing the latter by allowing for some SNLF/Z-plan one-time invasion capability and are considering “scratch convoys”, more-expensive one-time one-use builds representing huge economic dislocation to quickly gather small craft, to enable a one-sea crossing (Crete, Sea Lion, perhaps Dunkirk evac).  The latter might carry greater amphib combat penalties.
No need for comment on our ideas, but would appreciate guidance on rules questions.
Thanks,
John Costello

[Mark]

Hi Gamer John - thanks for the feedback and further analysis on the game system - I do hope you guys are enjoying it despite these questions.   Here is feedback on the first set of questions/observations:

1) Your assumption is the way we play and I will make it more explicit in the rules.  The Soviet Union and US have a fixes production until they are at war regardless of factories built and territories occupied (it is still a good idea for the Russians to build factories though).  Italian production is halved (including production for new factories (so +1 point instead of +2 per factory until at war).

2) Releasing only the Australian units is correct.  The Pacific rules (draft) are now posted in the Rules Thread and addresses this question directly.

3) Yes - when playing one theater or the other the "3" movement penalty is an abstraction.  When playing the global game the sea zones within the "3" boxes are ignored giving players more (or less) movement than in the single theater game.

4) The chips placed on the map are the ones eliminated.  So, if the US spent 3 and put to chips down, 2 PP damage would eliminate both of them.

5) Yes - working on Pacific and WW variants - the Pacific needs some more play-testing though I think before we start messing with it.  Feel free to suggest some though!

6) Both Russian Far East and Manchurian garrisons are locked until at war with each other.  The Soviet Far East Strategic Reserve, however, is released on the Autumn 41 turn or the turn Japan is at war with Russia.

Will get to the other questions in another post!

[Darkman]

If Not done yet, i think the rules should clarify that the italian production ist still halved when they start war with only some minors . :-)

[Mark]

OK, now on to some of the fun strategy posts. . .

In general we think the game is very well balanced - most strategies have counter strategies and over-investment in one area generally means you are gong to suffer somewhere else. . .that being said:

7) It is true the Germans can build a lot of u-boats out of the gates if they choose to.  However, the British can counter and build quite a few destroyers (1-2 a turn between them and the commonwealth).  We have played a lot of the '39 Europe games and have tried a lot of different angles.  An all out German u-boat offensive from the start can be tough on the UK, but typically the Axis suffer elsewhere by diverting all that production.  The British can also base aircraft in Iceland and long range aircraft in Northern England to help destroyers cover some of the convoy zones.  I would not change anything here until you have tried it a few more times.  It is manageable by both sides.  Of course, if the Germans max build u-boats and the UK does little to counter it, they will likely lose the battle of the Atlantic.

I think the UK, by the way, is one of the most fun and challenging countries to play.  I would give it to your most experienced player (or most experienced Allied player at least).  It is very tough on them until Germany is at war with Russia and the US is in the conflict (as it should be).  They need to be really on their toes balancing resources between France, England, the North Atlantic and the Med. . .

8 ) Vacillated a lot over the years on German Pz and PzGr production, but we think it is about right where it is.  It is true the Russians get hammered on the Barbarossa turn, but they can usually bounce back effectively which is pretty historical.   I love to play Russia by the way. . . you are really on the ropes until Winter.  Historically, the Germans had about 17 or so panzer divisions and another 12-13 motorized infantry divisions or so I think for Barbarossa.  With about 300 tanks per unit, it would be about 10 panzer units for Barbarossa.  With each PzGr representing about 4-5 motorized/mechanized infantry regiments they would have about 10-12 PzGr units as well (each motorized infantry div had 2 regiments as did each panzer division for about 55-60 motorized/mechanized infantry regiments altogether).

Even if the Germans take 0 armored losses in anywhere up to Barbarossa and Max build their mechanized units (to the detriment of everything else) they could have 19 panzer units on the board (7 at start plus another 12 units maximizing panzer builds).  If none of these were in North Africa, the Balkans or anywhere else, then they could have a significant hammer for Barbarossa.  But, I think it is very difficult for the Germans to max build tanks from the start and still do everything else they need to do.  I also think it is difficult for the Germans to not lose any armor up until Barbarossa (typically they would lose 1-2 somewhere).  Also, typically the Germans have armor involved in North Africa or on some other front. 

When we play a good Barbarossa for the Germans is usually a dozen or so tanks and a dozen PzGr units - which may seem like a lot, but good Russian play can absorb and stop it (though it is scary).  As a Russian player - I would suggest falling back whenever you can - preserve your units until you have better leadership.  I like to build a fort or two in rear places like Minsk, Kiev, Novgorod.  Keep mostly if not all infantry on the border and preserve your more expensive units in the rear. Note that you can still rail a factory out of a space even if it is being attacked.  So, one infantry unit in Kharkov, for example, allows you to still rail the factory out even if it is being assaulted by a panzer army. 

My early war Soviet builds are attached below - to give you an idea of how I build up the Russians pre-war.  Of course, a really aggressive German opponent will hit you in the Spring - and these builds are designed a little more for a German Spring attack than a Summer attack.

[Mark]

Darkman - I'll make sure it is spelled out in the special national rules section on the next release.  Really happy with the feedback as it is correcting a lot of little mistakes and overlooked details in the rules.

9 & 10 ) I agree with you on paratroopers - I think they are a bit over-powered and it has been a running debate amongst our gaming group.  I think Paratroopers probably should not get their bonus to hit on the first round of a assault.  I also think the Germans should start with one para unit instead of 2 but have not yet successfully got the rest of the design team on-board.  I think forcing them to take all the first losses may be a bit harsh though.  For example in Normandy, the 82nd and 101st airborne were ready to go again in the Autumn.  I'm all for pairing down their attack strength a bit however and also starting the Germans with one less.  Would like to carry this discussion further - you need to convince John. . .but I agree this is one of the areas that could be tweaked

11) We think the amphibious rules work pretty good the way they are.  The Germans can build 2 landing craft a turn which gives them a decent sea lion in a turn or two if they want to go for it and the British are weak.  Backed up by a couple of paratroopers and it can be pretty formidable.  I think it is tough to say that the flotilla of Rhein barges would make it to the coast of England and whether they would be considered front line unit in game mechanics terms or reserves is open for debate.  I've lost England once to a Sea Lion invasion.  The Germans had built maybe 3 landing craft and France was still in the game so I had not invested much in England's defenses yet.  I assumed the landing craft were going for Norway (which also had not fallen.  That and my opponent like to keep 2-3 German landing craft hanging out as it keeps the British (and the Russians in the Baltics) honest.  In the end, he just rails them to the Med and uses them with the Italians if there are no options for them in the Baltic North Sea.

The Axis can usually pull off a Crete effectively (I've lost Crete, Malta, Cyprus often). For Dunkirk, the rules allow infantry units to retreat onto transports which simulates an evacuation like Dunkirk fairly well.

Happy to discuss some of these rules and mechanics aspects more and make adjustments where needed

Some day we will need to play you guys at a convention or somewhere!

[Mark]

With respect to #8 - what would be your suggestion for German maximum panzer and pzgr builds?  3 and 3?

[Darkman]

Well.. i don't think paratroopers are that overpowered. It's fun to have some elite formations.
Transport planes can easily shot down later.

If not having the attack bonus . it's really rare that they hit when they are needed at all.
So they would be obsolete

[Gamer John]

Hi, Mark, our game is moving along and we spent time wrangling over fine points of the rules as we got to the expanded Pacific war.  Perhaps you can clarify:

1.   Air Ranges in the Pacific – We’ve reached the stage in our first game where Japanese island-hopping has begun and we’re not sure if air ranges make sense.  When aircraft are island-based, should they count the move into the immediate sea area as “1”, then into the next sea zone as “2”, then onto the island in that sea zone as “3”? 

2.  That question may only apply when Islands are “within” a sea zone, not if they’re part of the border of a sea zone – in that case, they’re always counted.  Or are they?  We see cases where it works well and others where it doesn’t. 

3.  We assume for a certainty that there’s no question about the count for continental land areas and larger islands (Japan/New Guinea), for air units moving from land to sea or sea to land.  That would always work as it does in Europe.

4.  We also want to confirm how air attacks against a port work.  It appears that the first round of attack includes the -2 modifier for air attack in port, then the defender can withdraw to the sea area the port is in at end of round 1.  Another round of combat would then be fought normally, without the -2 modifier.  At the end of that round, the defender could withdraw to an adjacent sea area, and the air units could not pursue.  For the first round of “surprise”, there’d also be the -1/+1 modifiers.

5.  A comment: We think the supply rules are pretty extreme from an historical perspective.  At the end of the Winter42 turn, there’s a gigantic Japanese fleet “in supply” near Samoa 4000 miles from Tokyo.  The vastly different scale of Pacific operations is tough to reconcile with Europe.

6.  You may already have clarified, we note the Japanese fleet carriers are shown as taking 2 hits but the rules stipulate these take 1 hit.

Thanks for your continuing help, Mark.
John Costello

[John D.]

Hi John - I'll clarify

1) Correct - zone sea off island counts as first movement
2) Yes - always count the first movement into a sea zone
3) Yes - landing onto a land zone from from ocean counts as a movement
4) We let ships in port retreat to an adjacent sea sone after round one (unless enemy ships are in the sea zone) - in that case a 2nd round of combat would ensue involving both air and naval units
5) Mark can comment
6) All Japanese fleet carriers are one hit