Standard game reports....

[m7574]

ok, by now we have played about 5-6 games of struggle.  Last time I chimed in we were concerned that the Axis had little chance of making it past 1943.   I am happy to report this is no longer the case.....

We discovered that German airpower is the key.   Scott has built a HUGE luftwaffe in recent games and it has made the difference.  Western Allies save little hope to hold Paris until the autumn.   The airwing is later moved to the eastern front where Russia is picked apart and pushed back until the luftwaffe is turned back to halt the Westtern Allies in late 43 or 44.  Russia cannot even trade pickets or conduct attrition combat with such overwhelming axis air strength.  If Russia does not invest heavily on AA guns the Germans can straeff a Russian stack and easily eliminate 6-10 red units every season!

Turkey goes to the axis most of the time as well.  It is almost impossible to hold off a determined axis drive to Cairo.  The trick is to buy an Italian transport every turn and haul boatloads of whermacht forces to Mersa Matru.  With all them transports in the water the UK cannot hold both Gibraltar and Cairo.   

In the Pacific we have given Japan a Factory on the "2" box on their production chart.   They need to invest for a couple of turns in order to reap the benefits which keeps them from steamrolling China, yet gives them a little more staying power once the US goes on the offensive.  Japan is so weak otherwise, so we really like this addition.

Scott thinks that Istanbul is so important for the Germans that he will attack it if Turkey does not join the Axis.  Without control of the Black Sea Russia is able to cut off Army Group South.  If the Axis want to make a drive into the southern heart of Russia, he feels this is a must.

[John D.]

Well ok then! Good to hear. Air is key to keep the Allied ships at bay in the Med as well.
Great - Russian AA guns are KEY to dealing with a huge Axis airforce. No other way initially...

[m7574]

One thing I have found to be somewhat a gamey tactic that is very effective:  German bombers stationed in Brest(france) are in range of UK convoys.  Little can be done to effectively halt this attack.  German bombers are much more effective than subs at strategic warfare.  So I am curious, did this actually occur in WWII?  Did the germans bomb convoys from france?

[Mark]

Well, kind of, but not really.  German Condors (4 engine long range aircraft) did fly out of Brittany in big sweeps over the Atlantic to help zero u-boats in on convoys in 1940-1941 until they were eliminated by the RAF.  They were very helpful and effective in the convoy battles early in the war, but were too few to be decisive.

The Germans 'could' have invested more heavily in bombers for the battle of the Atlantic - do allowing them to participate in convoy attacks is not necessarily a bad thing.  I would think the British could counter this strategy though by putting fighters in Southern England to drive the bombers away from the coast.

[m7574]

Not sure how ftrs in Portsmouth will affect the German bombers.   We have not been playing the optional rule which allows airbase attacks.  We have implemented airbase rules for the mtn/forest/desert tt's.

I am guessing that with germany controlling Brest/Brittany, the +1 to subs is reflective of Condor spotters assisting the u-boats.   The Condors never actually bombed the convoys themselves.  In struggle, Me110's are sinking $10 per turn of allied shipping, and the only method to stop it is to put the Navy in that sz and hope the AA fire hits a few.  That and the ftrs off the UK CV's.

So I guess my problem with the whole situation is that u-boats are a less attractive option to sting the UK economy.   Its more cost-effective for the Germans to bomb the convoys instead of attack them with subs.  Besides, later in the war when the US is able to protect the convoys the German planes can be deployed elsewhere.  Subs only have the one function.   

Thats a big ocean out there, its kind of silly that the luftwaffe could actually do this.  They should be in range of UK interceptors, but they are not.

[Yoper]

It is good to hear that you have put in the time and effort to find a way through your early issues.

And yes, the Italians need to buy some transports to give the Axis flexibility in the Med. 

I will have to look at the map/rules to analyze your Bomber in France idea, but I would just ask this- Where are you UK carriers?  Aren't they covering the NA Convoys?

[Yoper]

It would seem that your idea has limited potential since you can only reach the eastern most North Atlantic convoy from France (Belgium/Holland).

"Merchant raiders, destroyers, and air units roll a 1d6 divided by 2 (rounded up) [1-3 result] for their damaged inflicted." 

Plus, with the above restricted amount of damage for air units and any air to air combat that may be presented by responding CV fighters makes attacking convoys with bombers a weak option.

Maybe being able to hit the Mid and South Atlantic convoys out of Morocco (with bombers) would be nice but I just can't see that happening in the course of a normal game.  Either there isn't enough time to set this up in the usual timeframe of the game or you are so kicking the crap out of the Allies anyway that the game is pretty much won.

[m7574]

In our current game Germany attacked Spain to get to Gibraltar.   UK has been bombed to the tune of 15-25 damage every turn.   Its only 1942, and the Red Army is going to make him pay for the lack of focus on that front.   But wow, the UK is really neutered.   

If 6 bombers are sitting in Brest, hitting the Atlantic convoys, what good are two early war aircraft?  They MIGHT shoot down a bomber per turn I suppose.   Not going to happen in this game though, as there is ftr cover for all bombing raids comming from Spain. 

Right now the UK fleet is anchored in East USA protecting that convoy, as the German and Italian fleets have merged in the Atlantic.   With aircover and a couple captured French ships the Axis control the Atlantic.   It will take until 1943 to be able to challenge for control.

The whole point of this conversation is to point out how gamey it is to be able to bomb away half the UK income and basically eliminate the lend-lease option.   It is just silly that land based aircraft are able to do this.   If I have any beef with this game its the convoy box rules. 

[Yoper]

Well, it sounds as if the Axis are going to win this game big time!

I didn't even bring up the possibility of what UK convoys are in range of bombing from Spain.  I figured that if the Axis have Spain/Portugal, then the Axis are definitely in control.  If the Germans are in such a position that they can situate 6 bombers in not only France, but in a conquered Spain too, then yes- the UK is screwed!

Remember though that the UK can only be dropped to a certain PP number through convoy damage.  That number can be lowered as you point out by direct strategic bombing of the Home Isles, but that then means you aren't putting production towards other units that the Germans may need on the Eastern Front.

Another point towards this topic- Are you using the optional entry rules for the USSR and USA, or are you going with the straight forward base rules? 

The optional rules will speed up the response/entry of the US against the Axis because of the high damage from the convoy attacks and the attacks upon neutrals like Spain.  We pushed for the development of these optional rules to more accurately reflect the playout of the game based on the actions of the Axis instead of the more historically "locked-in" pattern of the base game.  It always seemed very goofy to have the US and USSR coming in at set times when the war was playing out in a totally different manner than it did for real. 

As such, you can get screwy conditions like you are getting in which the Axis can ignore certain issues that they would traditionally had to honor and pursue some very unlikely tactics with little to no repercussions.   

[m7574]

No optional entry rules.  Axis have not got the game in the bad by any means either.  Japan is in check and Russia is entrenched in Romania now.   

The biggest problem with Spain being Axis, is the ftrs being in range of Atlantic Convoys.  With unlimited ftr capacity there, the Allies cannot hope to protect the convoys.

So UK cannot be convoy raided below their home island value?  Where in the rules is this?  Is it an optional rule? 

[Citadel]

2nd Edition game?

[John D.]

No, first edition...

[Yoper]

No optional entry rules.  Axis have not got the game in the bad by any means either.  Japan is in check and Russia is entrenched in Romania now.   

The biggest problem with Spain being Axis, is the ftrs being in range of Atlantic Convoys.  With unlimited ftr capacity there, the Allies cannot hope to protect the convoys.

So UK cannot be convoy raided below their home island value?  Where in the rules is this?  Is it an optional rule?

Which copy of the rule set do you have?

This is from the last version that was posted 02/22/07.

Note: British, Japanese, Italian and U.S. production (and Soviet lend lease) can all be reduced by economic attacks against convoy zones. Total convoy damage on a given turn cannot exceed the production point value of a nation’s production center territories (flagged territories) as well as any factories in those territories. Production points saved from the previous turn are also exempt from convoy damage.

For example, Japan cannot be reduced below the 8 production points plus any saved production points from the previous turn as well as any factories Japan has that the home islands represent. Britain cannot be reduced below the 19 production points that Great Britain and Canada represent. Strategic bombing against those production point territories can only reduce these remaining production

[m7574]

thanks for the help guys.  Once I got my hands on the rulebook again I did find that entry listed by Yoper.   So UK was able to collect 19ipc's in our game.

But here is another question:  Can Atlantic convoys be raided for 10pp's pluss lend-lease or for 30pp's plus lend lease?  We have been playing it as 10.   You could raid any of the three convoy zones for any combination up to 10.  That made the most sense to us.  Now after reading how the USA sends their lend-lease, I am not so sure.

[John D.]

Up to 10 pp each plus LL.