Author Topic: Victory Conditions  (Read 10501 times)

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Darkman

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Victory Conditions
« on: March 14, 2012, 06:12:37 AM »
Heya all,

when taking a look at the victory table like the standard game , also the advanced game has some unlucky conditions in my opinion.

I have to say , i'm using the victory table sheet rather than the one printed on the map (john told me it's the updated one)

While i don't have problems with the axis victory condition, i don't like the allied ones.

Looking at winter 1944/45 , spring 45 , and summer 45 the VP counter has to be less than 12,9,6 in order to beat the axis.

Like the orginal game this i a bit too ahistorical for me. You can be better than history but still losing the game ..  thats a small bitter taste :-)

In our last game it's winter 44/45 and the axis have 11 VP points , they would loose the game and there wouldn't be a turn 24. In real there was one as we know, and they did have not that many VP territories (warsaw , budapest and so on) ^^ :-)

I would prefer a change to this

a) Shouldn't we set the vp counter down to what the axis still had in the timeframe? If the axis are weaker than in history they loose , if they are same or only a little better the game goes on.
b) or removing the allied victory conditions , the allies have 25 turns to capture all axis homeland victory points of germany. (we would need a different option for japan tho)


What do you guys think about it?

Animation 1939-45 map

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Second_world_war_europe_animation_large_de.gif
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 09:28:35 AM by Darkman »

John D.

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Re: Victory Conditions
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2012, 01:28:06 PM »
I'll defer to Mark on this...

Mark

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Re: Victory Conditions
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2012, 02:58:39 PM »
I think you make a good point with respect to Winter 1944/45 and Spring 1945.  For pretty much all of the other turns the 'beat history' concept works just about right, I think. 

The challenge as you converge to a win or lose finally in Summer 1945 was the design to make the two VPs for both Axis and Allies converge at a pretty even rate through the last turns of the game.  Also, it was important to keep a delta between one side winning and losing wide enough and converging through the last turns of the game as well.  For example, there is a 10 VP margin to keep the game going on turn 20 (16VPs vs. 26 VPs).  This converges to 8 VP gap, 6 VPs, and 3 VPs in the last few turns of the game. - forcing a victor by turn 24 with a 0 VP gap.

There are also a couple things that are not modeled perfectly in the end-game.  Like, in the game, the Germans would never pull out of Athens - there are no partisans.  More likely, in the game, the Germans may fort down in Athens and try to hang onto the VP there at all costs.

Also - I think you need to 'force' the Axis to try to hang on to more VPs than historically late in the game - or else they will just give up places and fall back into 3-4 fortress spaces and try to hang on to the end.  In reality, the Germans fought desperately for places like Budapest, keeping an army in Norway, and launching a huge counter-offensive to try and retake Antwerp.  So, I think the inflated VP level for the Axis late in the game tries to model in that level of desperation a little bit and also try to stop the Axis from 'gaming' the system and just falling back to rapidly and not fighting for some of these locations.

That being said, I am up for making adjustments to the game - one of the great things about it is we can take ideas from people around the World and implement them.  Can you propose a VP table that you think works better and post it here?

thanks,
mark



Darkman

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Re: Victory Conditions
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2012, 08:18:01 AM »
I will try to think about a different VP table for consideration..

on the other side stalin always feared that the allies would consider a peace agreement with the axis until the conference in yalta feb 1945 (winter turn 44/45) . the decided together that the only option is a unconditional surrender of the axis.

No World War 1 ending again!

For me the best option would be a total occupation of the german victory points in these last turns (winter 44 , spring 45, summer 45)  The axis wouldn't fortify athen too much because it would be useless as it was in that timeframe.. No they would secure the homeland at all cost!

We just would need a new end for japan.. mabye on end of summer 45 if japan not reaching enough VP , they surrender

Darkman

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Re: Victory Conditions
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2012, 02:52:37 AM »
How about

 
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 11:04:31 PM by Darkman »

Mark

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Re: Victory Conditions
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2012, 07:15:42 PM »
How about a compromise to the table below:


Darkman

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Re: Victory Conditions
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2012, 08:52:34 PM »
Sure , the table is better than the actual one when it comes to endgame.

Makes it harder for the axis and for the allies to win in early and mid game.
Can the axis win at all on this ? *grin*


I've seen you changed down the critical turn winter 44/45 from "less than 12" down to "less than 9" vp
Better but still ahistorcial :-)
Should be less than 7 or some zones need a VP upgrade :)

Darkman

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Re: Victory Conditions
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2012, 01:38:14 AM »
Hey :-)

Just want to push that thread up. Because i still think we should make a "historical way at least possible" I don't care ahistorical ways as long as a historial way is at least somehow possible.

The new VP table is really good. Mark wrote that the axis will probably fort down some territories and i think it's ok, they shouldn't win with only beeing defensive.
I think the axis counter is high enough to make that hard enough and if not it can be increased.

I'm just still thinking looking at winter 1944 if the soviets not taking warsaw , there is no chance on a spring attack on berlin 1945 due game movement mechanics.

Maybe only the game turn cards are the issue in time/date frame.
But looking on historical facts and looking on the victory points territories. Germany had "7-8VP" end of winter 1944.
Letting them lose with less than 9 is wrong ;-)

I took the information from that timeframe map
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Second_world_war_europe_animation_large_de.gif

so why letting them loose earlier at all?  i think you guys like to play to the bitter end as the same as i do :)

thanks,
Darkman

Mark

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Re: Victory Conditions
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2012, 09:14:22 PM »
Based on your comments and analyisis, we adjusted the Winter 1944 VP conditions down to 9, but for the game I don't think it is right and does not create the right 'tone' for the game during the last few turns.  As the real war wound down, there were some things that the German player would not do in game mechanics (like abandon Athens). 

Also, we want to create the environment for the desperate battles during the last few turns (like Budapest, and the battle of the Bulge).  With a lower VP threshold you create an environment where the Germans would not fight desperately for Budapest, Warsaw, Antwerp, etc... It gets a little close at the end for better or worse than history framework.  The table you have proposed basically has the Allied VP level dropping dramatically from Autumn 44 through Spring 45 and then being level for Spring 45 and Summer 45.  I think forcing a more even and gradual decline during the last few turns makes for a more fun simulation of the end game.

We have found it easier for the Germans to win a tight end game than the Allies and thus have adjusted the VP table slightly to compensate.  In game terms, I would expect the Germans to have 9-10 VPs if you account for historical things that game mechanics do not model (abandoning and withdrawing from Warsaw and Athens):

Berlin 3
Bavaria 1
Ruhr 1
Milan 1
Oslo 1
Athens* 1 (There is usually a battle for Athens in the game - unlike history, there is no incentive to abandon it)
Warsaw*1 (also abandoned after it was razed - no incentive to raze or abandon it in the game)
Budapest 1 (fell at the end of Winter 1945)

Darkman

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Re: Victory Conditions
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2015, 11:27:27 AM »
Hey guys!

Oh it's almost 3 years later.

I looked again deeply on the europe victory chart and created a new one to test. (If you like)

I thought long on the axis rows and didn't changed anything on it. So only the allied rows are changed.

Things i dislike on the current victory table

- Unhistorical for 3 turns (autumn 44 , winter 44/45,  spring 45)
- Let the Allies win the game in Winter 44/45 without having a fight on Germany itself.
- Let the Allies win in Spring 45 without having to fight on Germany + Norway.
 
-  Actually the Allies really don't need to invade Germany at all (only if they fear and know that there  will be a summer 45 turn)
  After D-Day the allies didn't accept peace without unconditional surrender so moving into Germany should be a primary goal.

- Based on the positions of the victory Points on the map to the real map and the dates on the  game turns .. Germany dropped from 19 VP to 9 VP from summer 44 to autumn 44.
   I tried to make  the new table closer to this but also accepting Marks comment on Athen. (You wouldn't abandon it)
   Warsaw is in the direct line to Berlin for the soviets so i don't see a problem with it. 

What does the new table do?  Actually it increases the possibilty to have a fight over Germany / Berlin.

But for sure it lowers the possibilty a little that the game end early for an allied win. 
Otherwise why should the axis surrender if not defeated or things got really worse?

At least i thought some weeks about it now, finding some good values.. maybe you want to take a look on it ;-)

Another thing i found out.... Maybe you planned that.. Actually once the game ends and if the allies are victories, you can look on the VP table and compare the allies with the soviet VP's to determine a winner on them.. The VPS are almost even and both sides can win.. can be pretty close if things go historical.

Have fun
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 11:31:59 AM by Darkman »

John D.

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Re: Victory Conditions
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2015, 01:13:57 PM »
Ok Darkman - Mark is away until next week. So I will reserve judgment.

Do you think your chart makes it more difficult for the Allies to "win"?

Darkman

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Re: Victory Conditions
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2015, 07:44:23 PM »
Hey John ! Overall yes by 1-2 VP on each turn. For Allies you either have to defeat the Axis in Germany itself or having a good run in taking VP territories.


John D.

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Re: Victory Conditions
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2015, 07:54:13 AM »
I think Mark feels that the Allies have a more difficult time winning as it is. What is your experience?