Author Topic: To build factories or not to build factories  (Read 15454 times)

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John D.

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To build factories or not to build factories
« on: June 08, 2005, 02:41:23 PM »
With factories costing 24 production points to build (therefore taking 5 turns to break even) you should consider whether the 24 points of unit builds can just as easily take territories worth 5 PP - this one mainly applies to Germany or Italy. Probably boils down to aggressiveness - do you want to attack places or conserve units for the long run?

Raybshot

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Re: To build factories or not to build factories
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2005, 05:37:11 AM »
Italy can't really afford to build a factory though they can't afford not to, earning 14 (halved pre war - 13 during war due to out of supply) means if they don't then they never have money during the game, if they do, they may not live long enough to break even.

John D.

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Re: To build factories or not to build factories
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2005, 07:01:12 AM »
I think that if Germany feeds enough product to the Italians in the Med. they can do a lot of damage. I will be more than happy to illustrate this. :)

John D.

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Re: To build factories or not to build factories
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2005, 12:14:14 PM »
Another note. If France falls early and Germany has not lost many units it may be a good idea to build a factory or 2 right away. If you can get them out well before Barbarossa occurs, I think it is worth it - especially if you wish to initially play conservatively - although I am on the fence as to whether conservative playing is the way to go...

Imperious Leader

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Re: To build factories or not to build factories
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2005, 08:02:06 AM »
Id love to comment on the viability of this strategy but alas i still dont have a copy of the game... where is it???
"You know, the French remind me a little bit of an aging actress of the 1940s who was still trying to dine out on her looks but doesn't have the face for it." ---John McCain, U.S. Senator from Arizona

John D.

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Re: To build factories or not to build factories
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2005, 10:10:05 AM »
Hello Imperious,
    Mark is in Holland so I am covering. Sorry for the delay. I am getting the maps from the printers on Friday. We are nearly completed with the first 2 full version games. One for you and another. We have glued over 1,000 units together in the past 10 days. We had to wait for a few backordered units. We do not want to rush and make any mistakes. Painting should happen next week.

 :)

Imperious Leader

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Re: To build factories or not to build factories
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2005, 05:49:37 AM »
Ahh Excellent!! a progress report has been filed! Good. Do a good job on the paint as many people will see this game at gen con LA. I will play (demo it) at least 2 of the 4 days.
"You know, the French remind me a little bit of an aging actress of the 1940s who was still trying to dine out on her looks but doesn't have the face for it." ---John McCain, U.S. Senator from Arizona

Bobsalt

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Re: To build factories or not to build factories
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2005, 09:17:44 AM »
Hello Imperious,
  Â  Mark is in Holland so I am covering. Sorry for the delay. I am getting the maps from the printers on Friday. We are nearly completed with the first 2 full version games. One for you and another. We have glued over 1,000 units together in the past 10 days. We had to wait for a few backordered units. We do not want to rush and make any mistakes. Painting should happen next week.

 :)

Dare I hope that I am the "another" you refer to?  ;D If not, any idea how far back in the queue I am? For reference, I'm the one who gave you a CC number early last week from Louisville, KY. As youcan see, I'm *quite* anxious to get my hands on this...
"Peace through superior firepower"

John D.

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Re: To build factories or not to build factories
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2005, 02:36:22 PM »
Yes Bob, your game will be ready with Imperious Leader's. Now I can't wait to play the game again. It has been too long.

Hello Imperious,
    The war machine is churning. We will do the best job possible.

Later - John

Imperious Leader

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Re: To build factories or not to build factories
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2005, 07:51:46 AM »
Danke mein herr!
"You know, the French remind me a little bit of an aging actress of the 1940s who was still trying to dine out on her looks but doesn't have the face for it." ---John McCain, U.S. Senator from Arizona

derdiktator

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Re: To build factories or not to build factories
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2005, 07:41:48 AM »
Deciding to build factories costing 24 bucks is a tough one... That being acknowledged, I'll admit to a weakness to starting factories immediately out of the gate (or not later than turn two) for Germany (2), Japan (1), and Brittain (1).  They are a painful early expense, but early is the ONLY time they make sense.  And once you have them, they keep paying and paying and paying.  Not massively, but worth the break-even costs I think.  This assumes of course that you aren't in a position where that early 24 points is a make/break issue (a la Italy).

The comment about using the 24 pts to capture five extra production points instead of factory building makes absolute sense.  However, I'm not sure I've ever seen a place where four armor units (or equivalent), will earn five production points that you wouldn't otherwise capture anyway.

dd

herostratus

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Re: To build factories or not to build factories
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2006, 05:53:47 AM »
For Japan, a factory makes sense.
For Germany, England, and Russia, it's debatable.
I don't think Italy can afford it.
And of course the USA has to build factories.

The factories have to be started at once, and probably only a single factory makes sense.

If you start a factory on turn 1 (Fall '39) it'll come on line for turn 5 (Fall '40) and pay for itself after turn 9 (Fall '41). By say Fall '43 you'll have had an extra 40 points that you wouldn't have otherwise had.

The problem is, Fall '41 is pretty late for an investement to break even.

And suppose the extra production points are used to build a heavy unit that you might not otherwise been able to afford - say, a battleship. (I realize production points are fungible and its hard to say what goes for what. But it's reasonable to suppose that you're desperately building ground and air units in the early part of the war, but would want to build, and would build, a heavy naval unit or strategic bomber unit if you only had five extra production points.) In that case, the battleship will come on line in the Fall of 1941 - a year later than if you had build it, instead of a factory, from the start. That might (or might not) be a fatal delay if you're Germany or England. Not if you're Japan, though.

On the other hand, it takes a year after coming on-line for a factory to completely pay for itself. If you're Russia, by the spring of 1941 the factory has already half paid for itself. You're still down five infantry units, but you've caught up by the fall. Which is gonna be more vital toward winning the war - having five more infantry units at Barbarossa, or having a couple extra infantry units every turn after Fall '41? I guess it depends on how fast and effectively the German attack develops. But if being down five infantry units for a couple turns is gonna sink you, you're in bad trouble anyway.

John D.

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Re: To build factories or not to build factories
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2006, 01:09:56 PM »
Just a quick correction:

If you start a factory on turn 1 (Fall '39) it'll come on line for turn 4 (Summer '40) and pay for itself (and then some)after turn 8 (Summer '41).

Remember - the turn the factory is placed is when you begin collecting income for the factory. So on turn 4, you pay 6PP to advance the factory to the "0" production box. At the end of turn 4 you would place the factory on the board and THEN collect income, counting the extra 5 PP that the factory gives you.

John

Mark

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Re: To build factories or not to build factories
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2006, 02:13:06 PM »
Russia needs to build 2 factories out of the gates (they start the 39 game with 2 already on their production chart). and they need to follow them with 2 more in order to have enough military production to declare war on Germany as early as possible.

The US also needs to build at least 5 factories out of the gates. 

I think it also makes sense for Japan to build a factory out of the gates (though it would be interesting if they went for units instead out of the gates and what impact that would have on the Pacific).

I think it is challenging for Germany and the UK to build a factory out of the gate - especially if the other side is going after them aggressively.

For Italy, given their first turn is not until Winter 1940, they don't have their factory on the board until Fall 1940 and they are not break even until Autumn 1941 - I think it that is a lot of lost Italian opportunity in the Med in 1940-41. . .

Historically, The German's switched over to Total War production in 1943.  Does it ever make sense for the Germans to build 2 factories in 1942 to reflect that?

derdiktator

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Re: To build factories or not to build (German) factories
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2006, 11:04:50 AM »
Except for the USA & Russian "mandatory" factories, building factories seems to me to ONLY make sense if started pretty much turn one or turn two (I'll make some allowance for a German or Brit turn 3 start, but have serious doubts) - the cost is just too horrendous and payback period too long otherwise, IMHO.

However, I do think there is a strong argument for building a second German factory (started the second or possibly third turn).  The seeming rationale for not doing so is that the PP are much more critically needed for preparing for Barbarossa.  However, Barbarossa does not effectively get underway until late 1941 or early 1942 - in most games, the Russian player is busily beating a hasty retreat into the interior of Mother Russia the first two or three turns of Barbarossa, largely refusing significant combat (or at least that seems to be the common occurrence - standing and fighting early usually seems a losing gambit).  Of course, fewer German units may encourage a tougher initial Russian stance, but then again, maybe not.

As such, assuming a second factory can be started even as late as the third turn of the game, it breaks even in Winter 41-42 and which is when combat seems to start in earnest on the Eastern Front and when the ground units are actually needed (and not really before).  In fact, given all the givens, pushing the break-even to Spring '42 seems tolerable (i.e., starting the second factory turn 4), given the big win that five extra production points provides forever and ever.

The trade-off is whether or not the Germans can do without the extra ground units during 1940 and early 1941.  From what I've seen, I think that the Germans usually have a breathing spell and can in fact usually do without the extra six-to-eight ground units a factory costs during Fall-of-France to Barbarossa. By the time they get Barbarossa really going (Spring '42), they will have built all the "lost" units and in fact then start to get ahead of the game.

In fact, it has been my experience that with two German factories, the extra ten PP goes largely to being able to build subs or other things to work on keeping the Brits in check and which I think is utterly critical to the Germans – something has to be done to keep the Brits in check else they always seem to torpedo the Germans by sometime in 1943 if not earlier. 

Of course, building two early factories does indeed call for incredible fortitude - dare I say guts - on the part of the German.  But, I think the German HAS to play for the long haul, looking towards 1942 and 1943 almost right from the first turn. 

All I can say is that I have never ever regretted a single German Factory that I've built.  I even used to build four German factories when they cost only 5 PP per turn - but the increase to six PP per turn has discouraged even me from buidling more than just two.

dd