Air Units in Combat

[smckenzie]

If a player chooses not to add air units into the 1st round of combat, can he add them in later?

Can air units choose not to bomb (to avoid AA Fire)?

So could someone fly defensive air support, but then withold his air units from bombing?

For that matter, could someone withold Offensive air support(without retreating)?

We frequently have a pile of allied fighters bombing a space, and then the german just does not interecept to let them take AA fire.  Could the allies choose not to bomb with some/all planes to avoid AA fire?

[John D.]

Ok- you need to commit air units to a battle right away.

Air units do not have to bomb even when flying defensive air support. I don't see why you can't withhold offensive air support without retreating. You don't have to expose yourself to AA.

Mark - correct me if I am wrong...

[Mark]

Right - units have to be allocated to the air to air combat battleboard - but nothing forces a player to commit planes from the air to air battle board to the ground battle board.  Only air units commited to ground support on the ground battle board get shot at by AA.

Let me know if this isn't clear

cheers,
Mark

[smckenzie]

I believe this is clear.

So I allocate 12 fighters to offense and then the defender commits no air, I could just not puut my fighters on the ground board and evade AA fire (but of course my fighters don't fire in the ground combat).

I assume the same if I had 12 bombers, I could simply not use them in the ground combat and so no AA.

Just clarify.  Does the same apply  to Strategic Warfare.

I have a slew of fighters and my opponent declines air combat, I could then just bomb with some planes and only the bombing planes take AA?

[Mark]

yes to everything   

[smckenzie]

Thanks.

[smckenzie]

Coupla more questions.

Can someone attack with just one ground unit and lots of air support?


In recent games this has not been happening so much, people have built a lot of AA guns.

Typically the player with air superiority (sometimes vast) attacks with 1 infantry and like 25 air units, and so 24 unsupported air units.  based on the rules we saw no reason to say you can't.

neither of these has ever happened, but related:

If you attacked across river with just mech units, and so no ground units in the front line in the first round of combat, does your air/artillery still fire as unsupported units even though you have no ground units?

Similarly:

Suppose all your paras were shot down in air to air, would your ground support still fire?

Suppose the paras were finished of by AA, does the air support still fire?

[Mark]

OK -

someone can attack with a lot of planes at "1"  - it is good to have AA to prevent this.

If you attack over a river with just mech - then all your support units would be unsupported for the first round shooting at "1"

Take Para casualties prior to determining front line units - so - if nothing is left on your front line air support and artillery would fire at "1" as well.

[qxxx]

I changed that rule in my games, no front line unit, no shots for unsupported units.

that stops the one infantry and 12 plane attacks

[Yoper]

I changed that rule in my games, no front line unit, no shots for unsupported units.

that stops the one infantry and 12 plane attacks

Martin in our group is notorious for the "send one land unit, get a shit-load of support shots"- be they air or naval bombardment.

I think that the last time we played, we made sure to limit the air and naval support shots to the number of front line units.

[Mark]

Yes this is actually a good rule for the game.  Agree with your guys fixes entirely.  Actually - for the 'advanced' game that we have been playtesting, we limit both the number of planes and artillery/ships that can support a battle depending on the number of front line units.  See this thread:
http://www.ww2wargame.com/forum/index.php?topic=299.0

So - if you have 5 front line units, you can have a max of 3 air units and 3 artillery supporting. . .

[smckenzie]

Thanks.

Don't know that you really need to change the rules.  Prior to using this tactic we produced very few AA Guns, except for the GE with their 88's.

I would suggest a new Unit, Wirbelwind's mech AA units that can fire AA in the attack.

[Bobsalt]

This issue of large numbers of unsupported air units has become a big problem in our games as well. I think what we're going to try is that each bomber unit can support 1 front line ground unit, but fighters will support on a 1:3 ratio (with a minimum of 1 if no bomber or artillery present). I want to copy the concept in World in Flames where you really need to have the correct aircraft for a given mission. In that game you can sometimes use an aircraft in a role it wasn't designed for, but it usually isn't all that effective.

I think we're also going to say that if you're trying to cross a river and you don't have at least one infantry survive, then you were unsuccessful in forcing the crossing and to continue combat you must fight another round with only half of your infantry and their support. Alternatively, we could also say if you don't succeed in the first round the combat is then over.

[John D.]

I like your river rule tweak - have you actaully been using it?

[Bobsalt]

I like your river rule tweak - have you actaully been using it?

No we haven't. We have discussed it and it is going to be in the rules re-write we're working on.

As to the "1 infantry & 15 aircraft" kind of attacks, we are probably going to do two things:

1) Bombers can support ground units on a 1:1 basis; fighters on a 1:2 or 1:3 basis.

2) All aircraft will be "single use" per turn as they are in World in Flames. So - you can use 15 aircraft in an attack if you want - but then they will all be "used" until the start of your next turn.