Author Topic: Another weird game in Louisville  (Read 10804 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Bobsalt

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Another weird game in Louisville
« on: April 22, 2009, 04:26:34 PM »
Here are some shots from our current game. Weíre going into the Spring 1941 turn, and in the last couple of turns the game has gotten a little weird, as youíll see.

Photo 1

Here we see the British ands Axis (mostly Italian) forces glaring at each other in the Western Desert. Each side has a level 3 and a level 5 airbase. The Axis player (Jason) is making a much more concerted effort against Africa this game (as youíll be able to see with the other photo of North Africa).

Photo 2

Hereís the Italian fleet. They have 5 transports to shuttle troops back and forth. From the commitment itís apparent that heís going for either the Suez or Gibraltar Ė but which one?



[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 04:34:33 PM by Bobsalt »
"Peace through superior firepower"

Bobsalt

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Another weird game in Louisville
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2009, 04:36:31 PM »
Photo 3

The Germans went for Norway and failed. The British player (Peter) then made an air attack on the exposed German fleet in the Norwegian Fjords. He had 3 FTR and an early war FTR to attack with; Jason could react with the 2 FTR in Denmark. We assumed he would, and Peter was going to ignore the ships in the hopes of killing a couple of fighters Ė but Jason didnít fly. Peter sent the 3 FTR against the Bismarck and the early FTR against the transport. AA fire from the Bismarck shot down one of the fighters Ė but then Peter hit with all three of the remaining planes (something of a novelty for Peter) to sink the transport and the Bismarck. In the Allied half of the turn, Britain reinforced Norway.



[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 04:41:27 PM by Bobsalt »
"Peace through superior firepower"

Bobsalt

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Another weird game in Louisville
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2009, 04:37:38 PM »
Photo 4

The Russian Front. Thanks to incredibly poor card draws the Soviets have yet to reach Tension Level One. However, as you can see, Jason has not yet massed for the typical onslaught he launches against the Russians. Russia has three factories on the map (not in the picture).



[attachment deleted by admin]
"Peace through superior firepower"

Bobsalt

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Another weird game in Louisville
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2009, 04:38:09 PM »
Photo 5

The Pacific. This looks fairly typical. The Japanese smack China around a bit and build up their navy. Japan has a CV and a CVL holding in the 0 box, presumably trying to hold down the US card draws.

Whatís really weird in this game is that Jason has embarked on a big shipbuilding program for the European Axis. Germany laid down a BB, CV, and a CA last turn (Iím sure he wasnít planning on Germany losing that BB last turn). Italy laid down a BB and CA as well. Jason occasionally gets a little bored with traditional approaches and will try different things to see what will happen; I think this is another one of those times. Itís kind of late as Iím posting this, so Iíll just leave this for comments for now. We plan to resume this game tomorrow night, so I should be able to update this on Friday.


[attachment deleted by admin]
"Peace through superior firepower"

Yoper

  • General
  • *****
  • Posts: 937
    • View Profile
Re: Another weird game in Louisville
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2009, 03:18:21 AM »
The Axis ignoring the Netherlands again I see.

What did you agree on concerning the NEI info?

That it won't go to the WA if you don't attack the home country?

Keep up the good work.

Craig

Bobsalt

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Another weird game in Louisville
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2009, 03:32:39 AM »
The Axis ignoring the Netherlands again I see.

What did you agree on concerning the NEI info?

That it won't go to the WA if you don't attack the home country?

Keep up the good work.

Craig
Craig,

I'm still waiting for an answer from Mark or John on that. In the meantime I'm saying that whether Germany ignores the Netherlands or not is irrelevant. The political realities of 1941 were that Japan was going to get the oil from the NEI - one way or the other. Since Japan couldn't risk being cut off from these supplies, war with the NEI was inevitable. As I said earlier, I don't think you should force players to play historically if they don't want to - but at the same time they should be forced to deal with historical realities. The oil was Japan's casus belli for war. I suppose the NEI could have caved to the pressure and continued to supply Japan with oil - but that's beyond the scope of this game.
"Peace through superior firepower"

Yoper

  • General
  • *****
  • Posts: 937
    • View Profile
Re: Another weird game in Louisville
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2009, 03:58:17 AM »
I never "got" why you guys never attacked the NEI, until you finally posted the question concerning whether it brought them into the war.

My group would discuss it and just didn't understand why you wouldn't.  Even with it not having VPs, the PPs were needed and they needed to be denied to the UK.

That is what happens when you assume things. ;D

Craig

Mark

  • Administrator
  • General
  • *****
  • Posts: 1383
    • View Profile
Re: Another weird game in Louisville
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2009, 05:29:19 AM »
Due to the importance of oil to the Japanese - I tend to be in the camp that says NEI are part of the Western Allies and Japan goes to war with them along with everyone else like it or not.  Holland joins the UK in declaring war on Japan (but not declaring war on Germany - smart little Holland. . . )

Bobsalt

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Another weird game in Louisville
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2009, 05:42:00 AM »
I never "got" why you guys never attacked the NEI, until you finally posted the question concerning whether it brought them into the war.
My group would discuss it and just didn't understand why you wouldn't.  Even with it not having VPs, the PPs were needed and they needed to be denied to the UK.
That is what happens when you assume things. ;D
Craig
Craig,

When I play Japan I almost always move in that direction; Peter sometimes does; Jason almost never does. Jason sums up the situation quite well Ė ďThe VPís are whatís important - the income is nothing.Ē

The reason for Jasonís quote is that most of our games end within a turn or two of US entry. Either Japan very quickly scoops up the VPís in the South Pacific and the Southeast Asia area and the Axis wins, or the Axis is so far behind the 8-ball that they concede. Several times as Japan Iíve sent forces toward the NEI Ė but won the game before they got there. This situation may change if thereís going to be an adjustment to victory conditions if US entry is delayed, but as it is, if as Japan you can secure 10-11 VPís in a couple of turns that put you over the top Ė why go after economic points that arenít going to make a difference?
For us, though, it may be irrelevant. It looks like this will be our last game for the foreseeable future. Jason and Peter both want to try out World in Flames, so I think weíre going to get that set up and see about starting a game around the first of May. The Struggle works best if you can have at least two players per side, and weíve had no luck in recruiting players. World in Flames has that same requirement of course, but with it being owned and played by so many more gamers itís a lot easier to recruit people to play it. Several folks at the local game club have already said theyíre interested in playing WiF. The people whoíve seen my copy of The Struggle all say that itís a cool game, but in my game club people want to own what they play and at the price there just arenít going to be many people who are going to buy it.

The one thing that might bring us back to The Struggle is the length of time it takes to play out a game of WiF. Iíve already warned Peter and Jason that itíll take many weeks to play one game; as contrast, we can usually knock out a game of The Struggle in two, maybe three sessions. We usually game about 4 hours a session Ė at that rate I can see WiF taking 8-10 sessions to play, especially since theyíre going to start out not knowing the rules. Once they spend 3-4 hours getting through 2 turns of WiF they may be pining for The Struggle again.

Jason has become bored with The Struggle, though, and all the talk about WiF has gotten me interested in playing it again since I remember how much fun I used to have playing it all those years ago, so it seems to be a good time to move on, at least for awhile. If nothing else, maybe after playing WiF a few times weíll be able to come up with more house rules to improve The Struggle.
"Peace through superior firepower"

Bobsalt

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Another weird game in Louisville
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2009, 05:42:58 AM »
Due to the importance of oil to the Japanese - I tend to be in the camp that says NEI are part of the Western Allies and Japan goes to war with them along with everyone else like it or not.† Holland joins the UK in declaring war on Japan (but not declaring war on Germany - smart little Holland. . . )
Thanks for the answer. I love it when you see things my way... 8)
"Peace through superior firepower"

Yoper

  • General
  • *****
  • Posts: 937
    • View Profile
Re: Another weird game in Louisville
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2009, 01:58:53 AM »
Eric from our group has incorporated many a rule into our own creations from WiF. 

He put in a lot of WiF play earlier in his life, but got tired of the long down time when people took forever computing all the combats to the nth degree.  He used to bring a book to read while waiting for other to play.

We used to have a lot of our games go one way or the other like you, but that is what drove us to come up with the alternate entry rules.  And even with those, things can still quickly "south" one way or the other if there is sub-optimal play one side or the other.

The best game we have actually had are the two grudge matches against the Bostonians.  Those went into middle to late '44.

Most of the games our group would play would tip one way or the other earlier simply because of bad play by either myself or Martin.  I won't even include our early games with Steve!  ::) :o 

We were still learning the game then and his terrible play just contributed to the mess.

Early game in the '39 Scenario is a real tightrope.  There needs to be some steady play by the UK and no real stumbles by Germany to get the game out to at least '42 in good shape.

Craig


Bobsalt

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Another weird game in Louisville
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2009, 05:50:33 AM »
Eric from our group has incorporated many a rule into our own creations from WiF. 

He put in a lot of WiF play earlier in his life, but got tired of the long down time when people took forever computing all the combats to the nth degree.  He used to bring a book to read while waiting for other to play.

We used to have a lot of our games go one way or the other like you, but that is what drove us to come up with the alternate entry rules.  And even with those, things can still quickly "south" one way or the other if there is sub-optimal play one side or the other.

The best game we have actually had are the two grudge matches against the Bostonians.  Those went into middle to late '44.

Most of the games our group would play would tip one way or the other earlier simply because of bad play by either myself or Martin.  I won't even include our early games with Steve!  ::) :o 

We were still learning the game then and his terrible play just contributed to the mess.

Early game in the '39 Scenario is a real tightrope.  There needs to be some steady play by the UK and no real stumbles by Germany to get the game out to at least '42 in good shape.

Craig


Is there any chance you could send me a note with the house rules youíre using? Iím really tired of trying to fix this game on the fly. Iíd especially like to know the naval air rules/units youíve mentioned.

Weíre in autumn of 1942 now; the Soviets are still not in the war. Your modifications to Soviet entry seem to be fairly historic; Iím concerned they are also unbalancing. With no worry about Russia, itís given a free hand to Germany & Italy to run free, with predictable results, since they out-produce England by about 2-1. It didnít help that Peter rolled dice last night about as badly as Iíve ever seen anyone roll dice Ė and this is no exaggeration. He made one airbase attack with 5 fighters against 5 German fighters Ė he got one hit; Jason hit with all 5. There was at least one other attack with similar results. In an amphibious invasion he rolled two consecutive rounds without a single hit while Jason wiped him out. Peter would probably be better served playing games like Spades or Hearts Ė anything that doesnít involve rolling dice.

The poor dice alone has about killed this game. If Peter had even come close to average dice the game would be quite competitive; as it is, the Axis have a huge advantage now. About the only chance the Allies have is that by going so long with no US entry the VP victory check is going to be pushed back Ė three turns, as of right now.

Against my better judgment, I let Jason talk me into not making aircraft into a single-use item this game Ė with predictable results. Aircraft are just too powerful in The Struggle and need to be seriously nerfed. Most of the time I let everyone vote on what house rules to try out. If we play The Struggle again Iím just going to write some house rules and basically say, ďMy game Ė my rules.Ē Iíve had it with the aircraft ruining the game.

I didnít remember the long wait times when I was playing WiF years ago, but now that I think about it, youíre right. We used to play at a game store that a guy had in his basement, and I remember that a couple of games I actually got into some other game on the side and just told the other WiF players to give me a yell when there was something for me to do Ė and I ALWAYS had a book with me to read. This memory has come back to me the past two weeks. Iím playing France, China, and the Soviet Union. Since Jason didnít attack the Soviets, Iíve had virtually nothing to do since France fell. I spent almost all of last night on the internet in the next room.

The long times sitting around with nothing to do while your opponent moves is an issue that all by itself has already caused me to rethink trying World in Flames. We played for 4 hours last night and I never rolled a single die the whole night.
"Peace through superior firepower"

Yoper

  • General
  • *****
  • Posts: 937
    • View Profile
Re: Another weird game in Louisville
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2009, 06:24:33 AM »
My main thoughts were to try to fix the air balance in the Naval Combats, but I do understand you issues with all air combat.

Never liked the Airbase Rule.† Just didn't think that it was the answer for some of the issues people had.

Right now, the game that Eric has us playing, the air to air combat system is a d6 with the (1) always being an abort and then any other "hit" value being a kill.† I say other "hit" value since most fighters kill on a (2) and (3), but there instances (bombers returning fire, out of supply fighters, etc.) were air units only kill on a (2).†

There are other instances where all the defending units can do is abort an attacking air unit.† This kind of goes back to our thoughts/conversations here about how the Struggle system can be too brutal at times.

Attached is my air unit chart with the adjusted values and the added units to the set up.† I would make the build limits (and cost) be the same as the fighter build limits (and cost) for the two countries that have the new unit.



[attachment deleted by admin]