Author Topic: Declarations of War  (Read 14289 times)

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Bobsalt

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2009, 09:19:53 AM »
Hi Bob - You can not build a factory (or anything else) in an out of supply territory. (I'm not sure if that was the question). Without seeing the game I can't say for sure whether to go on. What are the VPs like at this point. Are Paris and Rome in allied hands? - if so - it is probably worth playing out. It sounds like a very interesting game...
John,

No, actually my question was whether Italy can build a factory while demoralized – though maybe that’s a question for Craig since he wrote the Italian morale rules.

And unfortunately, no, the Allies do not hold either Paris or Rome. Paris is German occupied and fairly well garrisoned. Rome is empty, but Germany will be able to occupy it next turn. I think what I’m going to do when I get home from the tax office tonight is to look at the map and count up how many VP’s he has. I think we’re heading into the Fall 1942 turn. If Japan declares war this turn I figure it’ll be Spring 1943 before the US can do much – it seems to me that it takes about three turns for the US to go from pre-war to where they’re able to make themselves felt on the battlefield. The limit that only allows the US to build one of each unit before war is really a pain, too.
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John D.

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2009, 10:13:13 AM »
OK - LMK

Yoper

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2009, 03:40:49 AM »
I would play it out just to see what is possible. 

There is nothing like a weird scenario to bring about questions concerning game mechanics.  You may come across a whole horde of issues that need to be resolved as per rules of the game.

My gaming group right now is playing a game that Eric from our group came up with.  We are in the early stages of our second game and have already worked ourselves into a very crazy playout. 

As such we are getting to go over some very interesting ideas and as such we are pushing the boundaries of the rules and their interpretations.

Craig

Bobsalt

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2009, 09:08:59 AM »
Craig, almost every game we play has a "weird scenario"...  :o

We finished this game last week, and as you probably have no doubt, the Axis won on VP’s in Summer of 1943. In true Mark/John fashion I lay the blame for this debacle squarely at the feet of my ally Peter.  :P

This was our first game back in many months and many mistakes were made on both sides. Peter neglected to adequately defend several key points in the USSR, and made a critical error in his deployment of Soviet armor, which means instead of being the spearhead for his counter-attack they were instead destroyed by their German counterparts in the Mech phase of the first turn of attack. He did, however, play very well as Britain. In spite of nearly the entire French fleet going over to the Axis he immediately started hammering on Italy and never let up, eventually forcing their surrender.

Jason gamed the system pretty well to keep the US out as long as possible. The US finally got into the war in the autumn 1942 turn. It’s a shame that the USSR collapsed so thoroughly. Our games seldom go this long, and it was kind of neat to actually see the US be able to do something. If the Soviets had just been able to hold at Moscow the ending might have been very different. I had 2 CV’s and a CVE on the Pacific map (all with full aircraft loads). On the turn the before game ended I placed three more CVE’s and a CV (with full fighter complements). The game was about to go very badly for Japan. I had strategically re-deployed the Pacific Fleet to the Coral Sea on the turn that the US entered, so Japan wasn’t able to take the VP’s there. I reinforced there over a couple of turns; he ended up moving back to the Marianas. We had fought one naval battle – he knocked down 5 of my planes and I got three of his, and damaged two of his cruisers and sunk a destroyer. On the last turn I moved adjacent to the Marianas and strategically redeployed all of the carriers I had built there. I would have had 10 fighters and a large surface fleet (no Pearl Harbor), and I’d have basically dared him to loiter around there. I had transports and troops available to really hit the Marianas the next turn. I wish we had been able to keep it going a little longer – I’ve really wanted to have a game as the US where I actually get to have a little fun with all those shiny new Essex-class CV’s…

The limited stacking we used for aircraft was, in my opinion, a complete failure. It still didn’t prevent the massive stacks of aircraft in battles. Yes, you can limit stacking to 5 per flagged territory, but that still doesn’t prevent being able to send 15 aircraft to pounce on a territory that only has 4 or 5 – or having 15 planes available adjacent to each other to prevent the enemy hitting you back. Building AA guns is fine, but it isn’t really much of a deterrent when you have 10-15 aircraft available to hit a territory that has an AA gun or two. Also, AA doesn’t help with airbase attacks (I think this needs to be changed).

I’ve come to the conclusion that the only answer left is to place some sort of limitation on the use of aircraft similar to that in World in Flames, in which every aircraft is a “single use” weapon. I don’t know if it needs to be a single use, or if there should be a die roll to determine availability every phase like I suggested above, but I’m at the end of my patience with this. This issue has just about taken away all the enjoyment I have with this game. I’m going to suggest that we use some sort of mission limits for aircraft this next game; if that doesn’t work I’m at the point of suggesting we move on to find something else to play. That point may be moot, as Peter and Jason are both now quite interested in trying out World in Flames, and I think we’re going set that up and give it a go around the end of this month.
 
Craig, I wanted to ask you about the modifications you made to Soviet entry. We used that this game and Jason made a very astute point. With the delay of possible Soviet declaration of war it really gives Germany a much freer hand. I’m not opposed to that – in my mind your modifications push things to being more historical – but I wondered how many times you’ve used it and whether or not you’ve seen any impact on play balance. As much as I like historical integrity I don’t want to sacrifice game balance.
This was (I think) our third game with the optional Italian surrender rules and I have come to the conclusion that they are spot-on.

One more rule question did come up. Jason never took the Netherlands; deliberately, as it turned out. When the Allies went to war with Japan he argued that since Germany never declared war on the Netherlands that the NEI shouldn’t go to the Allies. Peter and I vetoed this, citing page 38 of the rulebook that lists the NEI as one of the western Allies, but (assuming our interpretation was correct) this is a potential loophole that should be closed.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 01:50:19 AM by Bobsalt »
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Yoper

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2009, 12:00:23 PM »
Quote
Craig, I wanted to ask you about the modifications you made to Soviet entry. We used that this game and Jason made a very astute point. With the delay of possible Soviet declaration of war it really gives Germany a much freer hand. I’m not opposed to that – in my mind your modifications push things to being more historical – but I wondered how many times you’ve used it and whether or not you’ve seen any impact on play balance. As much as I like historical integrity I don’t want to sacrifice game balance.
This was (I think) our third game with the optional Italian surrender rules and I have come to the conclusion that they are spot-on.

I only got part way thru a game in which I was trying out some new ideas, so I didn't get a good feel for my Soviet entry adjustment.

I have always wanted a more "situation-based" entry for the USA and USSR in any game that I play.  From this game to the games that my group comes up with, I always think that the entry of these countries needs to be based off of what is going on in the game, not because of some historical timeline.

I feel that the adjustments that I came up with more accurately model what would happen based on the events of a game, not history.  I think that the Germans should have the ability to do "what-if" strategies and not be punished. 

If they choose another path, including never seriously threatening the Soviet Union, then so be it.  I hate them being forced to follow a very structured path, especially one that gives almost no margin for error.

Thanks for the love on the Italian Moral Chart.  I will pass that along to Dan from my group since that was his mostly his work. 


Quote
One more rule question did come up. Jason never took the Netherlands; deliberately, as it turned out. When the Allies went to war with Japan he argued that since Germany never declared war on the Netherlands that the NEI shouldn’t go to the Allies. Peter and I vetoed this, citing page 38 of the rulebook that lists the NEI as one of the western Allies, but (assuming our interpretation was correct) this is a potential loophole that should be closed.

You would need to say something about the Netherlands being a part of the WA.  They aren't listed as such and don't automatically become part of the WA at the outset of the game. 

The NEI only become a part of the WA because the Netherlands in usually crushed by the European Axis by the time the Japs attack. 

Yes, it is a loophole, but it is one that comes about because of the "historical" mindframe that Mark operated in when he designed the game.  Fortunately, we were able to come up some alternate ideas- like the alternate entry rules- to get him out of his comfort zone.  ;)

Craig

Mark

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2009, 07:35:09 PM »
Hi from Prague!

OK - so I can't think outside of my historical box enough for you guys, huh?  I'll have to work on it. . .  ;D

A couple of suggestions though: 

If you alter the US or Soviet entry - I think you may want to modify the vicotry point track as well (since it is more or less based on a historical timeline) - something like a +1 VP shift in the Allied favor for every turn the US entry is delayed past Winter 41 (for example, if the US did not enter until Summer of 42 - there would be a +2 VP shift in the allied favor). . .

As far as air support goes - I really think we should consider doing away with the unsupported combat strength - only support units that have a front line unit to support can attack/defend.  I think that would help get rid of the horde of planes supporting an attack as well as the 1 infantry unit invastions supported by 6-7 ships.

Bobsalt

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2009, 05:32:50 AM »
Hi from Prague!

OK - so I can't think outside of my historical box enough for you guys, huh?  I'll have to work on it. . .  ;D

A couple of suggestions though: 

If you alter the US or Soviet entry - I think you may want to modify the vicotry point track as well (since it is more or less based on a historical timeline) - something like a +1 VP shift in the Allied favor for every turn the US entry is delayed past Winter 41 (for example, if the US did not enter until Summer of 42 - there would be a +2 VP shift in the allied favor). . .
Wow!  :o Did you post this somewhere before because this is the first time I’ve heard this, and we’ve been using variable entry for the US and USSR for a long time. If not, I’d say that’s a pretty major oversight! If the VP track is balanced for a historical US entry, then your suggestion makes sense to me. That would explain why most of the time in our games (taking into account occasional luck) the Axis usually wins once we reach the point that we check for VP’s. The VP shift in our last game would have been +3 to the Allies and would have made a huge difference in the game. I’m not saying we would have won – but on the turn the game ended Jason would have been 2 VP’s short instead of 1 VP over. I’m not convinced he wouldn’t have still won – but he would have definitely started to lose VP’s in the Pacific and the game would have definitely gone at least a few more turns.

If the VP’s should be modified for delayed US entry shouldn’t a note to that effect be added to the variable entry rules?

Does the same situation apply to entry for the Soviet Union? It seems to me that a delay in Soviet entry doesn’t have the same kind of impact on the game that it does with the US and all of its production; it also gives Germany a few more options to try out some different things.

As far as air support goes - I really think we should consider doing away with the unsupported combat strength - only support units that have a front line unit to support can attack/defend.  I think that would help get rid of the horde of planes supporting an attack as well as the 1 infantry unit invastions supported by 6-7 ships.
I agree with this idea, but I still don’t think it goes far enough. The other side of the coin here are the massive attacks on airbases. I know that the airbase rules are an optional rule, but one of our players insists that we use them because they are historical. I agree with him that they’re historical, but as written they’re also game-breaking. Not allowing aircraft to make ground attacks unless they have a front line unit to support fixes half of the problem – we still need a fix to the airbase attack problem.

One of the things I like in World in Flames is that you have to make decisions every turn as to how you’re going to use your fighters. For example, as Germany you can use them all tactically – but if you do you won’t have anything left to defend against strategic bombing attacks. Who hasn’t played WiF and faced that decision near the end of a turn where you have one fighter left and you can use it on a mission – but you’re looking at that stack of STR’s that your opponent hasn’t used yet… That kind of decision process is missing from The Struggle.

For our next game tonight I think I’m going to suggest that we make all aircraft single-use-per turn similar to WiF. You can use them only once – it’s your choice whether to use them offensively or hold them back to be able to react to your opponent. The one difference I’ll suggest is that planes can always defend in their own territory against airbase or tactical (but not strategic) attacks. Similarly, CV air groups can always defend their fleet ala the naval rules in WiF. Rebases will not count as an action – that way a player can move a plane forward tactically and then be able to use it in the Mech phase.

Another thing I like from WiF is that on strategic bombing attacks you get a +1 column shift if your enemy doesn’t intercept the bombers. I think something similar ought to be done in this game – say, a +1 to the die roll if bombers or strategic bombers (but not other aircraft) making strategic attacks aren’t intercepted. This could account for the very real political consequences that would result from not trying to defend the homeland.

Regarding the amphibious attacks using only one infantry and then using shore bombardment – we haven’t been doing this, though looking back through the rules I can see that it doesn’t say you can’t. We’ve always said from the very first game we played that you can only use one ship for every two infantry (1 ship for 1-2 INF, 2 ships for 3-4, etc.). Any excess ships cannot bombard. I can tell you that this has worked for us very well. Letting excess ships bombard at a 1 seems kind of cheesy to me – sort of like the massive unsupported aircraft ground attacks.

We did have another question come up during our last game that I just remembered. When a fighter wants to retreat from a combat, does it move 2 or 4? I have assumed 2, based on page 21 of the rulebook, which reads, “Air units can retreat a maximum of their movement range” and also the usage of the term “movement range”, which has always been differentiated from the term “movement allowance.” Which is correct?

You would need to say something about the Netherlands being a part of the WA.  They aren't listed as such and don't automatically become part of the WA at the outset of the game.
Actually, they are – it’s on page 39 of the rulebook, which reads “If Japan attacks the Western Allies (U.S., Great Britain, Free France and the Dutch East Indies) before they are able to declare war on Japan (before the Allied turn), Japan can conduct a one time only surprise attack.” It does seem open to interpretation, but to me the clear intent is that the NEI are part of the Western Allies once war breaks out. I do think this point needs to be clarified (Mark?) to avoid gamesmanship like in our last game. In our last game the argument was that since Germany never attacked the Netherlands, they weren’t part of the Allies and so once Japan went to war the NEI wouldn’t be part of the Allies.

Historically, Japan HAD to have the oil of the NEI; oil was their very reason for going to war. One of the flaws in the game in my opinion (as I’ve stated many times) is that Japan doesn’t have any compelling reason to go after the oil once they’re at war. I’ve played games that weren’t as detailed as this one where Japan had to take the NEI by a certain turn or they automatically lost the game. By saying that the NEI joins the Allies once war breaks out, at least there is some cost in game terms (the economic points of the NEI going to the Allies) if Japan doesn’t do in the game what they historically pretty much had to do once they made the decision to go to war.

I suppose the Dutch might have tried to stay neutral if Japan left them alone. They did however, regard Japan’s mounting aggressiveness as a threat, and Japan had already become rather strident in their “requests” to the Dutch for more oil, with more than a few thinly-veiled threats. As it was, none of this matters, because Japan wasn’t going to leave them alone. The rules already say that Japan can’t go to war with the UK but not the US (an interesting “what-if” – if the Japanese DOW was against the UK but not the US could Roosevelt have gotten the support he needed to go to war?), so why not add the NEI to that same equation. You can’t and shouldn’t force a player to play historically, but you can and should force them to deal with historical realities, and saying that the NEI are part of the Western Allies accomplishes this. Arbitrarily stating that the NEI are part of the Western Allies is no different than saying Japan can’t be at war with the UK or US separately, and closes a loophole in the rules.

Mark/John – can we get a ruling?
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Yoper

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2009, 07:15:46 AM »
Bobsalt- The "they" that I was referring to in my statement (that you quoted) is the home country of the Netherlands, not NEI.

The Netherlands is not listed in the rule set as part of the WA.  The NEI is only listed because of the aforementioned historical bias that Mark operated under in his designing of the game.

As for the shifting of the VP system based on the entry of the US/USSR, that is a point to be further discussed. 

Does the whole VP chart shift out the (x) number of turns too?

Or just the upper end of the VP score regardless of the timeframe of when the game ends?

Maybe the scoring of VPs should just start on the turn that the USA comes into the game, which would then mean that the game can possibly end further out than the set number of turns it now ends at.

Craig

Bobsalt

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2009, 05:09:59 AM »
Maybe the scoring of VPs should just start on the turn that the USA comes into the game, which would then mean that the game can possibly end further out than the set number of turns it now ends at.
I think this is a better idea than adding to the VP total. If you add to the VP total, using our last game as an example where US entry was autumn of 1942 (3 turns late), on the last turn of the game the Axis would need 13 VP’s instead of 10 – that’s a 30% difference. 3 points isn’t so much in summer of 1942 when the difference is 45 versus 42, but that three point differential at the end of the game is probably really going to skew the victory conditions against the Axis. It seems to me that it’s probably better for play balance to do as you suggest and push the victory check back a number of turns equal to the number of turns US entry is delayed.

Of course, as a side note – has anyone ever actually played out a full 25-turn game? I think we’ve gone as far as early 1944 once.

I kind of like the idea of going extra turns. It’s sort of like Stoppage Time in Futbol.

Mark/John – Still waiting for a ruling on the NEI question from my post above. This will probably be a factor in our current game when we resume tomorrow night so I’d like to get a definitive answer.
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John D.

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2009, 02:41:34 PM »
Hi - so the intent is that the NEI will join the allies as soon as the Japanese declare war on the Western Allies. Production goes to the Brits if they are not taken over by the Japs