Author Topic: JohnCon 2008  (Read 19129 times)

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John D.

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Re: JohnCon 2008
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2008, 09:28:17 AM »
(you know - better to ask forgiveness than permission...) ;D.
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A wise saying indeed!

We may do things a little differently for this. It may be available on a disk (much less expensive) and the buyer can just print it out on whatever medium they want.

Not quite there yet..

Bobsalt

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Re: JohnCon 2008
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2008, 04:07:42 AM »
We may do things a little differently for this. It may be available on a disk (much less expensive) and the buyer can just print it out on whatever medium they want.

Not quite there yet..
I don't have any experience working with printers. How much would you say that printing these up is likely to cost? I'm guessing that getting these printed in one piece per map is likely to be pricey?
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victorNaborski

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Re: JohnCon 2008
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2008, 05:10:38 AM »
I also have little experience with printers.  Oh and I've noticed that you took off the deluxe version of the game.  i know that it basically means you’re not doing making them anymore.  But if someone came along and requested it would you still consider doing it?

Bobsalt

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Re: JohnCon 2008
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2008, 05:15:15 AM »
Looking at the Pacific map, I do see one thing that I’d like to bring up. I don’t know what changes you’re making to the game, but just looking at the map it appears that Port Moresby is much more vulnerable than it was historically. Looking at the proposed game map it seems that it is a very easy step off from Mindanao to PM. You can move two spaces southeast from Mindanao to take Port Moresby from the west. This allows the Japanese player to take PM with much less risk than was the case historically. When the Japanese moved against PM, they went around the east side of the islands – this is what led to the Battle of Coral Sea.

They went this way so as to not run their fleet through such constricted waters as the other approach would afford. Those waters are no place for a battle fleet – if they were discovered they’d have no room at all to maneuver. Looking at a satellite map I’m not even sure the strait between the northern Australian Peninsula and Papua New Guinea would even be considered navigable for heavy combat ships that might very well be facing combat in those waters. There is a lot of shallow water and reefs there, and even if you can go that route you’d be very constricted in your movement. I doubt that even if it does have navigable channels that Japan would risk sending a combat fleet through there; if they did and Allied planes showed up at the wrong moment it would be like shooting fish in a barrel – and think of the opportunities for submarines.

I think consideration should be given to re-drawing sea zone boundaries so that you can’t take Port Moresby with one move from Mindanao. I also think that there should be a movement and/or combat penalty for going between Australia and Papua New Guinea – something like -1 to a fleet coming through that strait; +1 to ships on the other side as well as a +1 to aircraft attacking or defending against an enemy fleet coming through that approach - or even make that spot impassable for combat ships.

I’d also suggest some sort of die roll modifier if Japan tries the overland route from the north. The Owen Stanley Range of mountains was a formidable barrier to attack from the north, with few (and easily defensible) passes, and virtually impassable to heavy equipment and vehicles. Historically, the Japanese tried and failed at coming through the mountains. As an alternative to a die roll modifier, perhaps making the northern border impassable to all units except infantry would suffice.
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John D.

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Re: JohnCon 2008
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2008, 06:23:20 AM »
Hi Bob,
   I am going to let Mark address these points. I just try to break the game  ;D

Darkman

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Re: JohnCon 2008
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2008, 07:09:10 AM »
I have experience with printers here in germany.
And still i doubt anyone here would print swastikas on maps.
It is still a critical thing in germany , even after 60 years.

So you either have to do a light edition for me or send me a printed map , like before (which i prefer , since i don't know any printer here that can do such large maps)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 07:12:03 AM by Darkman »

kriegspieler7

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Re: JohnCon 2008
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2008, 04:29:13 PM »
Greetings!

Bobsalt wrote:  Looking at the Pacific map, I do see one thing that I’d like to bring up. I don’t know what changes you’re making to the game, but just looking at the map it appears that Port Moresby is much more vulnerable than it was historically. Looking at the proposed game map it seems that it is a very easy step off from Mindanao to PM. You can move two spaces southeast from Mindanao to take Port Moresby from the west. This allows the Japanese player to take PM with much less risk than was the case historically. When the Japanese moved against PM, they went around the east side of the islands – this is what led to the Battle of Coral Sea.

I looked at the "regular" map and I'm not sure how you figure it.  The area in southeastern New Guinea looks to be touching the same sea zones.  Weren't the issues you raised also a problem there before?

spitfire

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Re: JohnCon 2008
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2008, 12:15:07 AM »
Hey Guys!

I would like the option to still buy the Map from you, how about a economy version on disc for those who prefer it and  a more expensive "complete map version" (Map+Disc?) for those  who wants it.

I would personally like the templates with the combat values and the commander cards etc, how about selling those on a disc instead? Ithink everyone has a standard printer at home these days and these would be easy to print on our own, but the map?? I just rather get it from you guys, then I know it will be great quality,right size and so on.

Just some thoughts anyway, thanx!!
"Which would your men rather be, tired, or dead?"
German General Erwin Rommel escorting an Officer during the building of Hitler's 'Atlantic Wall'

Bobsalt

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Re: JohnCon 2008
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2008, 04:04:58 AM »
I looked at the "regular" map and I'm not sure how you figure it.  The area in southeastern New Guinea looks to be touching the same sea zones.  Weren't the issues you raised also a problem there before?
As a matter of fact – yes, they were. Since the map was already printed though, there didn’t seem to be much that could be done about it. In this case we’re still dealing with a work in progress, so hopefully there’s the ability to correct this.
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kriegspieler7

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Re: JohnCon 2008
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2008, 04:22:19 PM »
Spitfire wrote:
I would like the option to still buy the Map from you, how about a economy version on disc for those who prefer it and  a more expensive "complete map version" (Map+Disc?) for those  who wants it.

I'd like to see that too.  I've been toying with the idea of having a banner making company make a map on a banner, out of some kind of vinyl or other weatherable product.  They come in all sorts of sizes, don't you know?

Mark

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Re: JohnCon 2008
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2008, 03:13:37 AM »
Hi guys!  . . .and Happy New Year (almost  ::) )

With regards to the new map - we might print it out and sell it like we did for the basic game - we just have not looked into costs yet.  I like the idea of also getting it out to people on a disk for folks that just want to print it themselves.  We'll look into costs for both options.

As far as printing it out on a banner - we looked into that for the basic game map and it was a realistic option.  It all comes down to costs.  The basic game map was 3'x8' (24 square feet).  These new maps we are playtesting on now are 4'x6' for each of the Europe and Pacific Theater maps (48 square feet).

What we did for the map we are play-testing it on was to print out a bunch of regular-sized colored paper and paste them onto foam-board - ok for playtesting, but not ideal for a finished map.

Making the deluxe games was really time intensive to buy, paint and mount all the miniatures and then ship them off - and it was pretty expensive for people to buy as well.  I think most folks used existing miniatures or axis and allies pieces to assemble their personal games.  Of course we could do something custom  - but it may be easier for everyone if I just send you a list of what miniatures we recommend to buy and where to get them online.

As for Port Moresby - I agree that it is easier to get to and take for the Japanese than it was in real life - and you bring up some good suggestions on adjusting the new map.  I'll look into redrawing those sea zones.  As for the Own Stanley Mountains - I would prefer not to make a custom rule for one territory  - perhaps there are other territory boundaries on the map that would have the same effect as the mountains in New Guinea?  If there are - we could make a new territory boundary feature that only allows infantry to pass per your suggestion.

On that point, maybe there are sea zones that we could color a lighter shade of blue for shallows and reefs that would have an effect on naval combat - again, I would only want to do this if there were at least a half a dozen places on the maps that would have this kind of terrain effect.

Please let me know if you have sugestions on what territory boundaries and sea zones that might  fit your idea.

Oh - and I'll just email you, Spitfire, the templates for the leader counters and values. Perhaps you can give us some ideas for additional leaders, abilities and a better method for leader enty and exit.  Right now, I really just have leaders loosely timed to historical timelines and I'm not sure if I like that as a final way of having them come and go.

Bobsalt

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Re: JohnCon 2008
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2008, 08:33:28 AM »
Hi guys!  . . .and Happy New Year (almost  ::) )

With regards to the new map - we might print it out and sell it like we did for the basic game - we just have not looked into costs yet.  I like the idea of also getting it out to people on a disk for folks that just want to print it themselves.  We'll look into costs for both options.
My preference would be to buy it already printed AND have it on disk. Being that you probably already have a printer you use you’d probably get a better price than I could. At the same time, it would be nice to have it on disk in the event anything ever happened to the physical map.

What we did for the map we are play-testing it on was to print out a bunch of regular-sized colored paper and paste them onto foam-board - ok for playtesting, but not ideal for a finished map.
Hmm… thanks for letting us know. Not a bad idea – I’ll remember this in the event you go the disk-only option. Glue them down then give them a coat of lacquer and they ought to be pretty durable.

Making the deluxe games was really time intensive to buy, paint and mount all the miniatures and then ship them off - and it was pretty expensive for people to buy as well.  I think most folks used existing miniatures or axis and allies pieces to assemble their personal games.  Of course we could do something custom  - but it may be easier for everyone if I just send you a list of what miniatures we recommend to buy and where to get them online.

I’m sure that I will use the same miniatures I have now for the next game. Will you be producing the nifty backings that have all of the info on them to glue the miniatures on?

As for Port Moresby - I agree that it is easier to get to and take for the Japanese than it was in real life - and you bring up some good suggestions on adjusting the new map.  I'll look into redrawing those sea zones.  As for the Own Stanley Mountains - I would prefer not to make a custom rule for one territory  - perhaps there are other territory boundaries on the map that would have the same effect as the mountains in New Guinea?  If there are - we could make a new territory boundary feature that only allows infantry to pass per your suggestion.

On that point, maybe there are sea zones that we could color a lighter shade of blue for shallows and reefs that would have an effect on naval combat - again, I would only want to do this if there were at least a half a dozen places on the maps that would have this kind of terrain effect.

Please let me know if you have sugestions on what territory boundaries and sea zones that might  fit your idea.
Oh sure – just dump it all in my lap why don’t you!?!?!

Related to the issue of the Owen Stanley Range and what other territories I’d suggest having a similar rule for – I’m not sure. This one just stands out to me because when I was a kid I remember seeing this on a map and didn’t understand why Japan didn’t just land to the north and march south into Port Moresby; when I read how difficult the terrain was, then I understood. With the level of simulation you guys reach for with this game I just hate to see a situation where you can do something in the game with relative ease (taking Port Moresby) that in real life carried unacceptable risks (sending a fleet between Australia and Papua New Guinea through the Torres Strait) or was virtually impossible (using the overland route through the mountains).

Just to check myself, I researched a bit on the internet, and this area between Australia and Papua New Guinea is every bit as difficult to navigate as I was thinking. It’s only about 80 miles wide, which doesn’t give a lot of room for maneuver. In addition, every article uses words such as “obstacle-strewn”, “hazardous”, “difficult to navigate”, “shallow”, “maze of reefs and islands” – well, you get the idea. With this in mind, it seems to me that there should be some sort of impact in the game. As to what other sea areas I would treat similarly, off the top of my head I don’t know. I would say that the area wouldn’t have to necessarily be just shallow water to warrant some sort of impact in the game - any spot that is a natural chokepoint for shipping would be a good candidate for this. The Straits of Magellan come immediately to mind, but this area isn’t part of the map. Some other candidates:

Suez Canal – A fleet exiting the canal into an enemy-occupied sea zone would be very vulnerable to attack.

English Channel – The Channel Dash not withstanding, the Channel combines a narrow waterway with the fact that one coast permits the enemy to rather easily observe what you’re doing.

Malacca Straits – Another long, narrow waterway where ships would be vulnerable with little room to maneuver – one of the reasons why this area is currently so prone to piracy.

Others may have suggestions of their own (moving from one coast of the Philippines to the other?).

As to being reluctant to make a custom rule for the Owen Stanley Range – I understand wanting to avoid “one-time” rules. On the other hand (playing devil’s advocate) – isn’t that kind of what you’ve done with the Pripet Marshes?

Oh - and I'll just email you, Spitfire, the templates for the leader counters and values. Perhaps you can give us some ideas for additional leaders, abilities and a better method for leader enty and exit.  Right now, I really just have leaders loosely timed to historical timelines and I'm not sure if I like that as a final way of having them come and go.
If you send this to me, I’d be glad to look it over and give you any suggestions I have as well.
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Yoper

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Re: JohnCon 2008
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2009, 03:53:49 AM »
The Japanese actually did haul some artillery pieces over the mountains to set up a position that was a prime place for the shelling of Port Moresby. 

Then the commander received a message to return and help defend the Japanese positions on the opposite side of the island.

It was an incredible feat, but was a waste since it wasn't allowed to go forward.

Craig

spitfire

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Re: JohnCon 2008
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2009, 05:24:08 AM »
Quote
Oh - and I'll just email you, Spitfire, the templates for the leader counters and values. Perhaps you can give us some ideas for additional leaders, abilities and a better method for leader enty and exit.  Right now, I really just have leaders loosely timed to historical timelines and I'm not sure if I like that as a final way of having them come and go.


Hey Mark!

Sounds Great!
Happy to help if I can.
"Which would your men rather be, tired, or dead?"
German General Erwin Rommel escorting an Officer during the building of Hitler's 'Atlantic Wall'