Poland Situation

[Yoper]

Last night we had the situation where Germany attacked Poland and occupied the western three territories. 

In the battle for the southern most territory (Galicia), the UK player, who was running the Poles, retreated two infantry and a fighter back to Lwow.  This then left the Poles in control of Lwow and Brest-Litovsk at the end of Axis turn.

During the ensuing Allies turn, I (the USSR player) was going to attack those two territories.  The Polish (UK player) wanted to move the fighter from one territory to the other.  (I understand that he could have left the fighter in either territory and it would have been able to defensively respond to either territory.  That is not the issue here.)

My question (and the gameplay debate that I started) was whether the Poles have a normal turn, like any other country, or if they are a special case and can't do anything?

The problem here is that if they (The Poles) have a turn to move and/or attack (Are the Poles considered "In Supply" if Warsaw doesn't fall?) they are doing so at the same time that the USSR is doing their turn.

This leads to some screwy issues of the attacker and defender both moving and attacking at the same time.

I am glad that we are coming up with soooo many things for you to clarify.

This may be one of those times (Like the 'Japanese Garrisons in China' issue that I brought up at Origins.) where you guys have what you think should happen in the game right there in you head, but it didn't make into the rulebook.

Craig   

[Mark]

Yoper,

I think what you are describing has happened on other occasions.  Once the Germans attack Poland - the Poles are essentially British units per the rules - so at the end of the Axis turn - any surviving Poles are out of supply (as it is assumed they can't trace supply back to 2 British production centers - if they can, I have never seen it.  That leaves Polish infantry as 0's on the attack.  Surviving Polish fighter can't really do much on its own - except go industrial bomb some German production center  - they are usually out of range to make it to the UK or any other Allied territory in which to re-base and land.

But the Polish (British) fighter would move simultaneously with the Russians - so if the Russians attacked Lwow, the Polish fighter at the same time could go off to industrial bomb Prague or something and then after combat is resolved probably have no place to land and be eliminated.

[smckenzie]

In one of our games, the germans attacked Poland and did not shot down the Polish Fighter, and it flew against the Soviets.

Is it required that the Poles fly/fight versus the soviets?

Can they just move out?

In particular, does the Polish fighter have to fight the Soviets, or could the Brits decide not to fly it?

[Yoper]

In one of our games, the germans attacked Poland and did not shot down the Polish Fighter, and it flew against the Soviets.

Is it required that the Poles fly/fight versus the soviets?

Can they just move out?

In particular, does the Polish fighter have to fight the Soviets, or could the Brits decide not to fly it?

A fighter is never forced to fight.  It will just have no place to land, so it will be destroyed.

Believe me, we tried to figure out a way for it to fly out to France and survive.  It doesn't have the range.

You might as well fly against the Germans and try to get lucky.

Craig

[Bobsalt]

Actually, I'd say it more strongly than "you might as well fly against the Germans" and say "you absolutely MUST fly against the Germans."

Never, never, NEVER try to save the Polish fighter. Best-case scenario is for the Polish fighter to get a hit AND get shot down. In fact, when I'm the British player I try to fly against the territory that has the most fighters going against it to just to make sure it does die.

As Craig says, you might get lucky and shoot down a German plane, but you absolutely don't want the Polish plane to survive, because if it does and lands in eastern Poland, then it will fly against the Soviets, and it might shoot down a fighter belonging to one of your Red allies. As the British player I'd much rather see it get lucky against the Germans than the Soviets.

The only possible scenario I can see where you might try to save the fighter is if Germany bounces off of a territory in their attack and has no troops to follow on with in the assault phase and therefore fails to conquer the territory. If this happens, per the rules any surviving Polish units in that territory become Soviet. In this case, saving the fighter and landing it in that territory would make it a Soviet fighter at the end of the turn. Of course, I doubt that this scenario would ever happen since Germany NEVER fails to take Poland  (sorry Peter - I couldn't resist...).

[David]

I believe the situation that smckenzie is talking about the Germans did not Fly any planes in any of the attacks against Poland, so the fighter survived and had to land in eastern Poland.  Then Russia did not send any fighters into the attacks on eastern Poland so the Polish fighter flew greound support against both the Germans and the Russians before having no were to retreat and was eliminated.


So I think he was asking if there is anything that forces the Polish fighter to fly against the Russians or if they could just not fly.


David

[Bobsalt]

You know, this actually occurred to me last night. Statistically, that isn't a bad tactic for Germany. Even if a combat goes two rounds, and the Polish plane hits twice, you'd lose two infantry (presumably), which would still be better than losing a fighter if the Polish got lucky - 6 points for two infantry versus 8 for a fighter. That would force Poland to land the fighter in eastern Poland, as you said, and then the Soviets would have to deal with it (though they could do the same thing as the Germans).

I don't see anything in the rules that would force Poland to fly. The situation you describe is definitely gaming the system - it's pretty absurd when an attacker has an incentive NOT to fly air support - but there's nothing illegal about it.

Related to this, something Peter and I discussed at lunch one day was to have a rule where if a bomber or fighter flying as a bomber were unopposed by enemy planes (in other words, no air-to-air combat round) they would get a plus-one to their die roll. This would reflect the impact of one side gaining air supremecy over a battlefield. Another aproach would be that if one side doesn't fly any aircraft, any aircraft flown by the other side gets to specify their targets ala Stukas and Sturmoviks. This might be a better way to handle it - if the Polish fighter could specifically target German armor that would be a strong incentive for the Germans to use their aircraft more historically.

We never really pursued this idea due to the problems with the airbase attack rules, because the way the airbase rules currently work this idea would unbalance the game even further, but if something is done to prevent the buildup of massive air armadas perhaps an "air supremecy" rule would be a good idea.

[smckenzie]

Airpower is tough enough already without adding the +1.

As I have told Dave, I am obsessed with this game right now.

I think stacking limits would be a nice touch.

We have routinely seen fairly massive armies in obscure places.

Also, the tendency for extremely large stacks to forming.

Possibly an and/or limit the number of units that can fire in any given round of combat.

[John D.]

So,
    As you may know - the newer rules set has "front line" limits... 

 

[RandR]

The best the Polish fighter can do is shoot down any & all the German aircraft it can then have a mutually assured destruction (MAD) shot with the last aircraft. It's great when the Poles shoot down 2-4 aircraft. Drives the German player crazy!