Strategic Bombing and the timing of AA fire

[Yoper]

This is from a post of mine over in the AAR section:

I have been doing a bit more strategic bombing of Germany than we normally do.  The combination of defending fighters and the AA guns have just been too much of a deterent for our group up to this time.

We were thinking that maybe the AA gun rules concerning the SBRs should be modified to allow the bomber to make its attack before the firing of the gun.  Kind of like the attacks on the convoys by the subs.

The damage is then done but the defender has the chance to bring the bomber down.  Defending fighters still fire before the the bomber rolls its SBR attack.

This change would simulate the defending fighters intercepting the attacking bombers before the bombers reach the target.  It then would model the fact that the bombers are being lost over the target, but that most bombers still happen to release their bomb loads on said target.

We are talking about a bomber representing a large amount of aircraft.

Craig

What does everyone think about this?

[Darkman]

Makes sense in my eyes

Atm its too risky to bomb at all

[kriegspieler7]

Thought:

Is this the sequence you're talking about for SBR: defending fighters fire, bombers return fire, bombers deliver payloads, then AAA fires?

And, I forget, is SBR only one round of combat or three (as AAA can fire 3x/round)?

Thanks. k7

[Mark]

Seems like potentially a good idea - and it would make air strategic warfare more consistent with naval strategic warfare - and it would also make strategic bombing less risky.

Would you do the same for ground combat?  Would AA guns just fire along with all the other defensive units instead of pre-emtive?

I guess we let A&A shape our ideas about AA without questioning it too much.  What was the reason why they took the "prior-to-combat" approach in Axis and Allies?

[General Joe]

  Down side of having strategic bombing before AA firing is it may knock Germany to her knees to easily.
  Could Britain hold her own after the Fall of France, facing the U-boats and Strategic Bombing???
  The AA Gun firing 1st in A & A: AA Guns only fire once before the 1st round of combat. It is a special combat firing round at the high strategic level of A & A to abstractly represent AA firing in the game. Per the designmers of A & A. I once play tested for Al and Denis who recive 1/2 of the roalties from the A & A game.

                     Per: General Joe

[kriegspieler7]

Greetings!

Here's another thought for a SBR round:

escorting fighters (if any) fire vs. defending fighters;
defending fighters fire vs. escorting fighters;
     casualties taken;
surviving escorting fighters fire vs. bombers;
bombers return fire;
     casualties taken;
AA fires on bombers;
some bombers drop payload on AA (AA supression drop);
     casualties taken;
surviving AA fires on remaining bombers;
remaining bombers drop payload on target;
     casualties taken;
SBR round ends.

What do you think? Too pendatic and/tedious?

[Yoper]

Seems like potentially a good idea - and it would make air strategic warfare more consistent with naval strategic warfare - and it would also make strategic bombing less risky.

Yes, it would be more in line with the naval strategic attacks.  It wouldn't be any less risky, you just would get your attack to count.

Would you do the same for ground combat?  Would AA guns just fire along with all the other defensive units instead of pre-emtive?

We weren't changing the way ground combat is handled, just the AA in SBRs.

Thought:

Is this the sequence you're talking about for SBR: defending fighters fire, bombers return fire, bombers deliver payloads, then AAA fires?

And, I forget, is SBR only one round of combat or three (as AAA can fire 3x/round)?

AA guns and bombers would be considered to be firing at the same time just as the defending fighters and the attacking bombers are considered to be firing at the same time in the earlier step.

Each AA gun fires against up to three aircraft each, just like the normal rules call for.

Down side of having strategic bombing before AA firing is it may knock Germany to her knees to easily.  Could Britain hold her own after the Fall of France, facing the U-boats and Strategic Bombing???

Right now strategic bombing in the game is a non factor.  Yes you can pick at money here and there if the opportunity presents itself, but a major campaign just hasn't materialized in the games we have played. 

As I am presenting it, the AA gun will still get its chance to take out the bomber, but at least the bomber will also get to do its worst to the enemy.

The AA Gun firing 1st in A & A: AA Guns only fire once before the 1st round of combat. It is a special combat firing round at the high strategic level of A & A to abstractly represent AA firing in the game. Per the designmers of A & A. I once play tested for Al and Denis who recive 1/2 of the roalties from the A & A game.

Who the heck are Al and Denis? 

Larry Harris is the designer of A&A.

[Mark]

A few years ago we used to play that Heavy bombers could take two hits - like battleships. . . but that made them too tough - we had some massive strategic bombing campaigns sometimes in those days.  Switching the AA guns to simultaneous with the strategic attack may be just the thing to be a 'happy medium'

[Yoper]

Greetings!

Here's another thought for a SBR round:

escorting fighters (if any) fire vs. defending fighters;
defending fighters fire vs. escorting fighters;
     casualties taken;
surviving escorting fighters fire vs. bombers;
bombers return fire;
     casualties taken;
AA fires on bombers;
some bombers drop payload on AA (AA supression drop);
     casualties taken;
surviving AA fires on remaining bombers;
remaining bombers drop payload on target;
     casualties taken;
SBR round ends.

What do you think? Too pendatic and/tedious?

Way too much to do!

1) Escorting fighters and defending fighters commence air to air combat.
2a) If there are no escorting fighters, then all defending fighters commence attack against bombers.
2b) If there are escorting fighters, then bypassing defending fighters commence attack against bombers.
3) Bombers return fire against defending fighters.
4) Surviving bombers roll for strategic damage against the Production Center.
5) Defending AA guns fire against the bombers.

[General Joe]

   The original A & A game was put out by Nova Games.  Larry went to Nova Games with a A & A design. Al was major owner and CEO of Nova Games. Larry showed Al and Denis at Nova Games his design which was very much like a Hex game with all the charts etc. Al looked at the design and came up with a new concept for the game and talked Larry into changing the concept of A & A into what it is today. Denis designed the A & A Combat System we all love not Larry! Milton Bradly went to Nova Games at the start of the 3rd year of Nova Games selling A & A a runaway succes that Nova Games could not keep up with demand. Milton Bradly purchased the game and hired Larry, the rest you know. Al and Denis also recieve smaller roalties from A & A Europe and Pacific. I also know a few of the origenal play testers of A & A. If it wasn't for Al talking Larry into changing the concept of A & A, it never would have been !

                                     Per: General Joe

[Yoper]

Aaaaahhhhh!!!!!!

Nova Games guys.

That's why I didn't recognize who you were talking about.

Okay.  Understood.

Craig