Starting July 1940 Scenario

[kriegspieler7]

Greetings!

I'm looking at starting/setting up a scenario which begins just after the fall of France in June, 1940.  I've got several options in mind:

1.  Metropolitan France is overrun but continues the fight with the navy and the armies in the colonies.

2.  France falls and Vichy France is born.  The French Fleet can go one of three ways--Allied, Neutral, or (Sacre Bleu!) Axis.

With the latter scenario, there are only 4 (5) combatants:  Germany/Italy vs. UK and China vs. Japan.  It will cause things to be narrowed down a bit with some other potential opportunities.  (Germany traded with China until the late '30's until Hitler told the German businesses that to do so was upsetting to future potential ally Japan.  Maybe he could have been persuaded to change his mind.)

Any ideas you and others may have will be gratefully considered and acknowledged.

Enden.

[Mark]

Sounds insteresting for sure.  I think you may want to beef up the UK and China and/or change the victory conditions if you want to play out a hypothetical scenario where the US and Russia do not get involved in the war.  Yoper is experimenting with ideas along similar lines.

cheers,
Mark
 

[kriegspieler7]

Well, for a start, as I was doing some research on WW2 and learned that the possibility for the USA to go to war in Europe was planned for June 1943 according to the ABC-1 Conference in either 1940 or 1941 (date?). 

And I learned that Hitler beat Stalin to the puch by about 2-4 weeks.  It seems Vuya Iusef was going to hit Adoph "but missed it by that much." 

What if Germany and his Axis allies had not attacked the USSR in 1941 and gone in another direction?  And what if the USSR had attacked Germany and Rumania in 1941?

The possibilites boggle the mind. 

P. S. Oh, and a brief word about the Frenchy's:  when France fell in 1940, it's navy and colonial military were intact.  They would have lost the ports, airfields, bases in Metropolitan France, but they could've used others from the British.

[Yoper]

I highly doubt that Stalin was going to attack (which is part of the basis of my discussions with Mark). 

And if he was, then he deserved to be crushed because of his own stupidity. 

His army wasn't in any shape to mount an offensive because of antiquated equipment and his purge of most of the effective officers.  Its inadequacies were exposed when the Germans attacked.

I could see the USSR demanding certain concessions (influence in places like Romania and Bulgaria) from the Axis as time went on, especially if the Germans hadn't attacked them and if the Germans were weakened by their activities in the West, but that doesn't mean they would be in a position to mount a full scale invasion.

Craig

[Mark]

So - I was wondering - why start a scenario on Turn 4 (Summer 1940) rather than just starting a game from the start?  The first 3 turns usually only take about an hour or two to play?

[kriegspieler7]

I guess starting this date presented a lot of variables which I've had in mind for a while.  France is no longer a major player. 
England stands alone (-except for help from the US, which I think historically the Congress approved Lend Lease this month, July, 1940). 
Is the Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, and Wermacht up to the task of Operation Sea Lion?
Italy is involved as they declared war on the Allies when they saw France was down to 8/9 of a 10 count.  But where will they go?  Eastern Europe is non-aligned and alliances are up for grabs for awhile.  What will the Brits do with France/Vichy and that navy?  Will DeGaulle prevail into having the French fight on despite the loss of their homeland? 
In the Pacific, China and Japan are slugging it out and just what will the Japanese do?  Did Khalkin Gol (the 1939 Japanese-Soviet skirmish in Mongolia) really show them the difficulty of going north and west instead of south?

It's just another optional scenario.  Granted the amount of time is not that great, that is, if you are a "serious gamer/grognard," which I am.  Been playing wargames since my first AH purchases in 1964-5 (Midway and Stalingrad).   The enjoyment is in the playing (and possibly winning a time or two)!  And now, with WW2: The Struggle . . . I hope to find the opportunity to try somethings I've been wondering about.  A&A and World at War game systems were okay and good.  But now, with WW2: The Struggle . . . I really have a chance to "git 'er done."

[Mark]

OK - I understand.  you may want to take ellements out of the US entry optional rules for your scenario - like I would start China with and artillery and an AA gun and maybe 6 production points instead of 5 - and I would consider having the Japanese economy damaged by U.S. and allied import embargoes - those things, along with allied len lease through Burma will contribute to an interesting Asian theatre.

Will you be making it to any of the big cons this Summer - like Origins or GenCon?


Mark

[kriegspieler7]

Greetings!
I hope to make it to Gen Con Indy.  I'd really like to go to Historicon, but that may be a year or two away.
I am so glad to have WW2:TS4E&A, not only as it's a good game, but it provides me a platform for a lot of different ideas I've had re:  WW2 wargames/simulations over the years.  I've got some miniature fuel barrels (from AnAM, I believe) and some houses from Monopoly to represent supply centers, and I anticipate putting them to use with WW2:TS4E&A as the engine to pull it along.  More to follow.

[kriegspieler7]

       Maybe another way to approach this is to start at the beginning of June, 1940, instead of July, with the Anglo-French Alliance intact.  There is a lot of information on the OOB's for that date.Germany is in this all by itself and Italy doesn't come in until just a few days before the end of the German invasion of France (if at all).
      And then events could follow with some slight alteration, like after Germany invades France, roll a 1d6 and on a roll of 1-2, Italy joins with Germany, and on a roll of 3-6, Italy remains neutral.  It does not enter the war for another 6 months or more.
     Another idea:  If France is defeated and Vichy decides to join with the Germans against England, it only fights until the US enters the conflict.  At which time it declares itself neutral. 

Just some thoughts on future possibilities.

[kriegspieler7]

I'm leaning more to starting with June, 1940 for this set up, with France and its military still in place. 
With the idea of starting say in June, 1940, several options present themselves: 
1) We can go with the actual historical situation of Germany having defeated and occupied Poland (Western side--USSR, Eastern side), Denmark and Norway and having suffered loses due to those operations/campaigns.  An OoB wouldn't be too hard to come up with.
Building units can be dealt with by retracing income levels and each player decides what could have been in production; or
2) Denmark and Norway were never attacked or occupied.  Their forces are still intact.  And the Kriegsmarine wouldn't have gotten it's nose bloodied so bad. Again, an OoB would be easier. (I know this is kind of stupid, as that bohemian paper-hanging corporal would never have let those countries go free and miss out on the opportunity to really put the screws on England.)  And again units in production would be dealt with by retracing income levels and each player decides what could have been in production.
3) We make both options available to players. 
Anybody got any thoughts?