d12 conversion

[Imperious Leader]

Have you folks considered a d12 conversion? You can achieve greater piece attributes (range is not 12 events) while the pieces themselves have greater character. Also a third consideration is it will allow new units. Example: a SS Panzer unit at a d6 system, would presumably attack at 5 (since heavy armor is presumably at 4/4). On a d12 the SS unit could be assigned values of 10/9, while Heavy could be at 8/7--- meaning your gaining the fractions of true values you would  otherwise have been lost on a d6 system.
Im not advocating any change, just wondering if during the design stage the point was raised and if so why  did you decline to go in that direction?

[Mark]

This was a tough one.  One of the game play testers / designers, Joe Churma, advocated a d12 system from the start and we tried a few tests with it.  But, I really decided against it.  

The main reason was we could achieve enough differentiation between unit combat and cost values with a d6 system.  We found that there was little value in paying for a unit that had an 8% better combat value than another unit that was even 1 PP more expensive. On top of that, it added a layer of complexity to an already complex game (compared to Axis and Allies) - and anywhere we could reduce complexity without effecting the game, we did it.

The game as it is now took a very long time of play testing and changes to get the combat value / cost ratio to work for every unit.  As it stands now, there are twelve different types of ground units, six types of air units and ten types of naval units – and each has a unique value in the game (i.e. depending on the situation, every piece is valuable).  It took a lot of tweaking to achieve that – especially when you have so many different unit types.

I know there is a lot of debate out there about the value of a d12 system – but I think if you play test it enough (especially with some play testers who know very little about the war and are playing it purely as a game) you may find that there is just not enough bang for the buck to differentiate units in a d12 system.  So, anyway – to make a long story short – the reason we did not go with a d12 system was that there was no need to do it.

[Mark]

As for SS units - another good question.

I would consider most of the heavy armor pieces in the game your SS Panzer formations.  If you would like, paint some of them black to represent the SS pz units.  Germany continues to purchase regular armor units throughout the war (3,3's) which represent your regular armor formations - the heavies really represent the ss units and the elite panzer formations and are(4,4's).  I don't know if I would rate the combat value of the totenkopf or the fundsberg divisions any higher than the Panzer Lehr or the Grossdeutchland for example.

[Imperious Leader]

When comparing it on those terms thats correct, but as a general feature the SS units were invaribly larger ( 2 brigades i think) got the first replacements, best weapons, had their own supply systems,had fearless leaders and were allways put to the test as some spearhead to whatever new offensive a field Marshall can dream up. At the wars end about 700,000 were about were in waffen ss units (about 25%) of the army. On the average they were the "crack units" and could make a good optional rule as a new unit, but again since i dont know the unit values i cant guess at the cost or ratings.
   I might also add that there were more SS units than panzer grenadiers... LOL... so if you could include some optional new units what do you think these SS panzers should look like on the stat sheet?

[Mark]

There were really only 7 ss divisions that I would consider elite: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 9th, 10th and 12th. There were a few good infantry and mountain divisions as well, but many of the SS units later in the war were a rag tag collection of Cossacks, Croats, Belgians, Dutch, French and others with negligible combat value.  (I am sure you know all of this)
I think these 7 pz units as well as some of the other elite German armored formations and independent ss panzer battalions and brigades are represented by the heavy tank piece - per the rules:

Heavy Armor
These units not only represent an even more refined use of armored tactics and combined mechanized arms, but also elite armored formations (such as SS Panzer and Guard armored formations) as well as the brute strength associated with Medium Panther or heavy Tiger and JSII tanks.  The psychological impact as well as the firepower and armor advantage that these units had on the battlefield outclassed that of medium armor.  Heavy armor, therefore, attacks and defends with a value of "4*". Because their vehicles such as Tiger tanks were not easily mass produced and their crews represented the elite cadres of tank crews, they cost 7 product points to build when they are available.

[Imperious Leader]

Ahh cool! Ill just paint a few of them black for fun. The values are good 4/4/7 i guess they move 2 or 3

[Mark]

Actually, all land units only move 1 space.  But mechanized units get to move and attack again in the mechanized phase.  So, its a good idea to have some panzergrenadiers (these units represent motorized infantry as well) accompany your big panzer units to absorb any losses and some 88's which are great defensive units (defending on a 4* or less) to deal with any counter attacks against your mechanized breakthrough units.

[General Joe]

I am a member of the main play tester group of the D6 WWII Game . I am at present working on a D12 Version of the WWII game. The rules will be overlaid on the current D6 Version Game. The rules I am using were developed part time for around 2 1/2 years and were working on them with a friend that passed away. We were planning on putting out a D12 Version WWII Game with a large Land Area and Sea Zone game similar to Marks. I have Marks permission to put together this expansion game. The D12 Version will be a bit more complicated and will have SS, Guards and few other units. Will update futher as it moves along.

[Imperious Leader]

Ahh good. If you need some help just let me know. I have some experience in these matters.

[Mark]

OK OK, under pressure from several folks, I am coming around to the idea of a d12 system overlay to the current rules.  The main reasons for this is the ability to reduce the level of damage inflicted in some combats and still provide quality differentiation between units.  It also gives us the ability to add a couple additional units into the game that folks have been wanting.

Below is a first pass at air to air combat values for planes in a d12 system - let me know if you have any thoughts on the following:

Hit on a # or less  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â Unit
  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  1  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â Stukas and Sturmoviks defending
  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  2  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â Medium bombers defending
  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  3  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â Heavy bombers defending
  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  3  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â Early war Italian, French, Russian, Japanese, and others
  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  4  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â German Me109s, 42 Russian, 42 Italian
  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  5  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â Elite Japanese, U.S., British, German FW (42+)
  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  7  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â Jets

I will post other proposed d12 combat values soon. . .

[Uncle Joe]

  I think the d6 version works just fine for the game.  Don't make it more complicated if you don't have to.