Author Topic: Minors and Supply  (Read 17201 times)

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Mark

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2008, 12:09:57 AM »
Wow. . . :o  I wish I could have watched that game unfold - it sounds like a roller-coaster!

You desrverve a much longer reply, but I think you have driven the point home that we should allow minors to be in supply in their own country - I think that must be a rules change and I would suggest you guys play with it going forward.

I need to run this morning, but I'll get back on the other key questions.

Thanks, Bob
Mark

Bobsalt

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2008, 06:29:21 AM »
Wow. . . :o  I wish I could have watched that game unfold - it sounds like a roller-coaster!

You desrverve a much longer reply, but I think you have driven the point home that we should allow minors to be in supply in their own country - I think that must be a rules change and I would suggest you guys play with it going forward.

I need to run this morning, but I'll get back on the other key questions.

Thanks, Bob
Mark
It was definitely one of our weirder games – and considering some of our history, that’s saying a lot. Be careful what you wish for – if we get to come to Origins you may get to experience some of the weirdness first-hand.

Peter was over again last night helping me remodel my bathroom – OK, actually I’m helping him remodel my bathroom – and when we wrapped up for the night we sat in the living room and chatted for awhile, and as always, the talk turned to gaming. He was discussing the predicament that the UK is in having lost the British Isles, and said that in addition to the loss of income from there I could keep hitting his convoys for additional damage. When he said that, it hit me – why should I be able to continue hitting the convoy zones if the Axis conquer the British Isles? I can see maybe being able to attack the western-most one, since some things from Africa or the Indian Ocean might go through the western Atlantic on the way to Canada, but a lot of stuff would go via the Pacific; certainly there wouldn’t be anything going through the eastern zones once England’s gone. I think that in the event Britain loses the Isles the two eastern-most convoy zones should no longer be able to be attacked (and maybe say that the sea zone on the coast of Eastern Canada becomes a convoy zone).

I’m not sure how critical an issue this really is, since I don’t think England is likely to be taken all that often, if for no other reason than if you do it early in the war it means a very quick entry into the war for the Soviets if using the optional rules; after at war with Russia I don’t think Germany will have much of a chance of pulling it off. Still, the unexpected can happen, as our group seems to demonstrate on a fairly regular basis.

The one thing that bugs me is that if Turkey had been considered in supply, Russia would have had to immediately fort up to protect their southern flank – maybe enough to allow me to get away with my English adventure. Maybe not though – the optional rules are such that you just can’t really try Sea Lion with much hope.
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Yoper

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2008, 04:43:42 AM »
In Jason’s redeployments for the Soviets in Winter 1939-40, he left only two units on the Turkish border. Per the rules, we rolled, and Turkey entered the Axis. Great, you think.

I commented about this statement to my Detroit boys on Friday night and Dan remarked on it by questioning whether you could even move away from Turkey at all. 

I pulled out the appropriate parts of the rules concerning this below.  The first bullet states a requirement that they must stay.  Then the second bullet gives circumstances that allow for the USSR player to not follow that first requirement.

These two statements should be rewritten to reflect the ability for the USSR player to choose not to have to maintain the garrison.   

Quote
• All Soviet units that start the game adjacent to Turkey and or Persia must remain adjacent to Turkey/Persia until the Soviet Union is at war with Turkey (though the units are free to move to any territory that is adjacent to Turkey or Persia). This garrison is reduced to 4 units (of any type) on the Soviet Fall 1941 turn

• If the Soviet Union does not have 4 ground units adjacent to Turkey at the end of any Soviet turn, roll a die, and on a 1-3, Turkey joins the Axis immediately.


This third bullet is okay since it doesn't have the caveat that Turkish border requirement has.  There is no penalty for nor anyway in which the USSR player can reduce the garrison voluntarily.

Quote
• All Soviet units that start the game adjacent to Manchuria must remain adjacent to Manchuria until the Soviet Union is at war with Japan (though the units are free to move to any territory that is adjacent to Manchuria). This garrison is reduced to 5 units (of any type) on the Soviet Fall 1941. turn


I would also say to you Bobsalt that our group quickly came up with a graduated system of entry for the "major" minors of Turkey and Spain.  The base game system of them coming in on the rolls for the triggers made them too gamebreaking in our opinion.

Quote
Spanish and Turkish War Reluctance
Axis minors Turkey and Spain do not immediately join the Axis upon successfully rolling a trigger entry for them. Instead, it takes two successful trigger rolls to bring Spain or Turkey into the war.

On the first successful trigger roll, Spain or Turkey become “pro-Axis” neutrals and contribute half of their production points to Germany rounded up (like Sweden) every turn. Upon the second successful trigger roll, Spain or Turkey join the Axis as a regular Axis minor ally as discussed above.


Craig

Bobsalt

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2008, 05:59:15 AM »
I commented about this statement to my Detroit boys on Friday night and Dan remarked on it by questioning whether you could even move away from Turkey at all. 

I pulled out the appropriate parts of the rules concerning this below.  The first bullet states a requirement that they must stay.  Then the second bullet gives circumstances that allow for the USSR player to not follow that first requirement.

These two statements should be rewritten to reflect the ability for the USSR player to choose not to have to maintain the garrison.   
I don’t see this the same way as you do. The first point states a requirement; the second gives what the penalty will be if that requirement is not met. You could make the argument that this isn’t well-written, but I think it’s written in the usual format of wargame rules; after all, if you were absolutely prohibited from moving troops away from the border why have a penalty for not having a garrison in the first place in the very next paragraph?

I would also say to you Bobsalt that our group quickly came up with a graduated system of entry for the "major" minors of Turkey and Spain.  The base game system of them coming in on the rolls for the triggers made them too gamebreaking in our opinion.

Quote
Spanish and Turkish War Reluctance
Axis minors Turkey and Spain do not immediately join the Axis upon successfully rolling a trigger entry for them. Instead, it takes two successful trigger rolls to bring Spain or Turkey into the war.

On the first successful trigger roll, Spain or Turkey become “pro-Axis” neutrals and contribute half of their production points to Germany rounded up (like Sweden) every turn. Upon the second successful trigger roll, Spain or Turkey join the Axis as a regular Axis minor ally as discussed above.

Yes, we’ve seen this rule suggestion and rejected it out of hand. Half of the fun for us is when unusual things happen in the game. The game would become dull if every game played out the same. Our view is that anything (such as the possibility of Spain/Turkey) that creates different situations helps liven up the game.

After talking about it last night we’re probably going to go with a rule that Spain and Turkey are always in supply in their own country until they are cut out of supply to the rest of the Axis by Allied moves – no more Turkey being out of supply immediately. We’ll probably rule that Madrid and Istanbul are flag territories for purposes of supply.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 06:02:17 AM by Bobsalt »
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Yoper

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2008, 01:34:40 AM »
I commented about this statement to my Detroit boys on Friday night and Dan remarked on it by questioning whether you could even move away from Turkey at all. 

I pulled out the appropriate parts of the rules concerning this below.  The first bullet states a requirement that they must stay.  Then the second bullet gives circumstances that allow for the USSR player to not follow that first requirement.

These two statements should be rewritten to reflect the ability for the USSR player to choose not to have to maintain the garrison.   

I don’t see this the same way as you do. The first point states a requirement; the second gives what the penalty will be if that requirement is not met. You could make the argument that this isn’t well-written, but I think it’s written in the usual format of wargame rules; after all, if you were absolutely prohibited from moving troops away from the border why have a penalty for not having a garrison in the first place in the very next paragraph?

I would say to you that the first bullet of the Turkey garrison and the bullet concerning SFE are written the same.  As such, they set forth the idea that you must maintain a specific garrison amount at specific times.

Now if we go by your thinking, that the USSR doesn't have to keep a specific amount of a garrison in these places, then does that means that there isn't any penalty for the USSR if they pull back from Manchuria?

All I am saying is, if you are going to have a second bullet that lays out what the consequences are for not maintaining the garrison, then don't use the word "must" in the first bullet.

One shouldn't state things in absolutes and then turn right around and give exceptions to those absolutes.  That is why I thing that the first bullet of the Turkey garrison should be rewritten.

Craig



sleipner

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2008, 03:01:59 AM »
Hi, what about the case if the units are destroyed in combat?

DD
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Bobsalt

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2008, 04:16:23 AM »
I think you need to not just read each bullet point, but also look at them as a whole and determine what the intent is of these rules. The point related to Manchuria states that Russia can’t move units, and subsequently lists no penalty for not doing so; ergo, the intent is that they can’t move these units – period. With Turkey, one of the points says pretty much the same thing – but in the next point lists a penalty if you don’t comply; therefore, the intent appears to be that you can move them (although at high risk). I believe this point is also there in the event that Germany is able to eliminate the garrison units through combat, which, according to this rule would generate a die roll.

Of course we can always appeal to a higher power… ;)

Mark, what is the official ruling on this?
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Bobsalt

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2008, 04:18:58 AM »
After reading the posts in this thread and giving it some thought, I think this is the route we’re going to go in the future regarding the points I brought up.

Minor countries will be considered to be in supply until conquered as long as their units are within their own border. Subsequent liberation will require that they be in supply per the normal supply rules.

For Spain and Turkey, the two territories that allow an infantry build for them (Madrid and Ankara, respectfully) will be considered a supply point for the entire country. Any units within the national border of these two nations will be considered to be in supply as long as they can trace supply to this supply point (or normally, of course).

If Russia declares war on Turkey prior to Turkey joining the Axis, the following will apply to US and Soviet Event-driven Entry:

Declaration of war on Turkey – US and USSR each discard two cards.
Russia occupies Ankara – US discards one card.
Russia occupies Istanbul or any territory bordering the Mediterranean – US discards two cards AND may not lend lease to USSR for the remainder of the game.

If any of these events occur and the US or USSR do not have enough cards to satisfy the discard requirement, these cards will be deducted from subsequent turns until the required card discards have been satisfied. Example – USSR declares war on Turkey on turn 2, and makes a successful amphibious invasion of Ankara. The US is holding two cards. Both will be discarded due to the declaration of war, and the US will draw one less card the next turn than would be normal due to the Soviets taking Ankara.

RATIONALE

My rationale here is fairly straight-forward. Holding to the regular supply rules lends itself too easily to the opportunity for abuse, as we’ve seen. It can be argued that although a minor country couldn’t become an offensive juggernaut, they could produce enough bullets, artillery shells, food, etc. to keep their armies supplied (though in most cases it isn’t going to make any real difference) to be able to defend themselves.

In the case of Spain and Turkey, they were both large industrialized countries at the outbreak of WWII. Though certainly not at the level of the major combatants, again, they could keep forces supplied with bullets, shells, bombs, food, etc.

Either way, I don’t see this as game-breaking, since these rules would be largely defensive in nature; if units move outside of the respective national border, they have to trace supply normally.

Regarding the card draws (discards) for a Soviet declaration of war on Turkey, there is real-world justification for this. In the game it’s easy to see the Soviets as an ally against the Axis; in real life, prior to Barbarossa much of the West didn’t see any real difference between Hitler and Stalin. There was considerable outrage in the West due to the Soviets joining in on the carving up of Poland; a Soviet declaration of war on Turkey would have fed the isolationists in the US and made the case for gearing up for war overseas more difficult. The reason for the harsh penalty for the Soviets taking a Turkish territory bordering the Med is also logical. Russia has wanted a warm water port for the last two centuries, and if they did attack Turkey they would certainly have done everything they could to drive to the Med. However, this would have been seen by England as a direct threat to their interests in that part of the world by a regime that, prior to Barbarossa, they considered to be just as bad as Hitler, and like Hitler was hostile to Britain and the US. And, again, it would have been more ammunition for the isolationists in America.
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Yoper

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2008, 07:21:19 AM »
I think you need to not just read each bullet point, but also look at them as a whole and determine what the intent is of these rules. The point related to Manchuria states that Russia can’t move units, and subsequently lists no penalty for not doing so; ergo, the intent is that they can’t move these units – period. With Turkey, one of the points says pretty much the same thing – but in the next point lists a penalty if you don’t comply; therefore, the intent appears to be that you can move them (although at high risk). I believe this point is also there in the event that Germany is able to eliminate the garrison units through combat, which, according to this rule would generate a die roll.

I would like to clear something up- I agree with you that the Turkey border garrison situation should be flexible and handled as you propose.  I have no problem with there being a way for the USSR player to choose how he wants to defend his country and decide whether he wants to risk Turkey becoming an Axis Minor.

My only point is that the bullet should be written differently so that there isn't any confusion as to the intent.  It would be cleaner if the two bullets worked together to explain the situation on that front.

It shouldn't be written such that it is exactly like the SFE garrison requirement but doesn't mean the exact thing since it has a qualifier bullet that comes right after it.

I understand the idea of not taking each rule out of context, but if you just write the rule in as straight-forward a manner as possible, then you don't need to try to interpret the intent of the author.  It is always easier to just say what you mean instead of saying something and then giving out a list of exceptions that explain what you just said.


As to the supply of minors thoughts you have, I like it.  I was along the lines of what were discussing.  I am glad that someone else is bringing it up to Mark and John.

Craig

Mark

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2008, 04:05:55 AM »
well, the intent was to be just like the Soviet Far East.  i.e. The Russians must maintain a garrison of 4 units on the border with Turkey.  The bullet about "if they don't" was intended to address something like German units coming down and eventually killing of the Soviet garrsion and reducing it below 4 against the Soviet player's will.

So - to clear the rule up, the Soviet player must keep the minimum border requirements.  The only way he gets below 4 units is due to events beyond his control.

I like the supply rule adjustments

Yoper

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2008, 06:29:12 AM »
Thanks Mark!

Your explanation makes perfect sense, but it is another example of what we have discussed before-  the designer (you) knowing exactly what is intended by the rule but not putting all of the pertinent information into the rule so that other will understand exactly what you intended.

It's only 5 weeks to Origins!

Craig


Bobsalt

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2009, 07:33:41 AM »
Well, it's been a long time, but the issue of the Soviets declaring war on Turkey turns out to be a non issue. Jason sent this to me in an e-mail - it's from page 36 in the rulebook:

Because of the Nazi-Soviet Pact, the Soviet Union may only attack (as well as declare war or occupy) territories within the Nazi-Soviet Pact border (within the red border) until at war with either Japan or the European Axis. These are Vyborg, Estonia, Lithuania, Brest-Litovsk, Lwow, Bessarabia and Tabriz. Note: Bessarabia and Tabriz do not have any defending neutrals in them. Although Vyborg is part of Finland, treat Vyborg as an independent neutral territory for game play purposes. Once the Soviet Union is at war with Germany or Japan, it is free to declare war and attack any Axis and Neutral country on the map.

So, no pre-emptive attack by the Soviets. Just a lot of time wasted on a red herring. I guess that does prove that it helps to actually read the rules...  :-[
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