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WWII: Struggle for Europe____WWII: Struggle for Asia => Game Design => Topic started by: Darkman on December 07, 2014, 09:32:10 AM
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Hi guys,
Want to suggest some changes to the Japanese leaders (Pacific Game)
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This post ist outdated and almost 8 month old.. please look down.
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This is great - I can't wait to give the Pacific a facelift! 8)
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Heya
As promised some month ago i wanted look deeply on the Pacific Game and found some errors on the Japanese Empire Leaders.
I only had time yet to look on the Japanese Field Generals .. I will look deeply on the Naval Generals in the next days.
What i did?
First i looked on all Generals & Lieutenant General that you guys were using for this game. Like in Europe many Entries & Removals were wrong.
Then i looked on all Generals & Lieutenant General of the japanese Empire from 1939 - 1945 that had a major role in WW2.
For my suggestion to you i won't provide the unimportant ones or the ones that switched commands fast were almost entirely on the soviet Border.
I was sitting the whole day on it and reading a lot about them i think i found a good solution to bring them up to you + and correcting some erros & Leader Entries
I also found out that almost all Japanese Leaders have an historical entry autumn turns rather than on spring turns. Only a small amount i needed to adapt.
I always looked on the game turn Dates so sometimes the entry was a month earlier or later.
But Autumn works for them all.
What i did not?
Sorry i had no time yet to look on the allied or chinese side.
Maybe if you guys like this suggestion Mark can look on the allied site .
Maybe there is some role for an Chinese Communist Leader like Marshal Peng Dehuai , The British Louis Mountbatten or the US Admiral Chester Nimitz or some other Leaders that i sadly forget atm.
The Suggestion
* Imamura = His Picture Is wrong. This is Imamura https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imamura_Hitoshi
The Picture you use is Tadamichi Kuribayashi , also known a the Defender of Iwo Jima. A New Leader i would like to add.
** Kurita = Sadamu Shimomura. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadamu_Shimomura
You use the right Picture but the wrong Name
There existed an Admiral "Takeo Kurita" on the battles of Guadacanal but this is an Naval Leader that i might introduce in my Naval Leader Suggestion
Tomoyuki Yamashita (the Tiger of Malaya) is similiar to von Rundstedt .. Leaving the game in Autumn 1942 and coming back later with altered stats.
These three Leaders had a major role on the war against China.
Shunroku Hata
Toshizo Nishio
Jun Ushiroku
So what does it change actually ?
To make it short. The changes add 2 Japanese Field Generals during all game turns. Some leaders leave , some come.. So you have some against China and some against the Allies.
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Mark,
We got some work cut out for us :)
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Seems all like good suggestions to me. . .I'll make the adjustments - thought may take me a bit. The only change we may want to do is change the late war general (Kuribayashi) to a 1 defensive re-roll instead of 2 - that may be too rough for small Pacific scale battles late in the war.
Leaders like Eisenhower, Nimitz, Yamato, Mountbatten - I have excluded from the game as they were more like theater supreme leaders rather than actual army or army group leaders. It would be interesting to incorporate them into the game, but I think it would be something different than the leaders we have & the way we use them.
We experimented with other Chinese leaders, including the Communist Chinese leader you name below, but I think we determined it gave the Chinese too much flexibility (they are already more than a challenge for the Japanese) and decided not to play with them. Now, with the additional Japanese leaders, we may want to revisit the idea of Chinese leaders.
Mark
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Maybe you are right about Kuribayashi to a 1 defensive re-roll instead of 2. Might be too much for pacific. Maybe then make him an 2-4-0-1 Leader or something like that.
Still working on the Japanese Naval Leaders. I hope i'm done in 2-3 days
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OK - will make the adjustment for Kuribayashi. Interested in what you end up doing to my naval leaders. . .
I don't think the Japanese need too many in play at any time. . .maybe 4. . .more than that and it seems they do not end up getting used.
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Ok finally it's done! I read a LOT biography of Japanese Leaders over the last week... especially Naval Leaders now.. very interesting i have to say. I have to admit, the pacific ´scenario is very interesting.. more and more.
@Mark I'm happy you posted about not liking to have too many leaders.. it changed my point of view a Little bit and i had to take the scissors 8)
I only took the Leaders that were interesting in my Point of view. Only Admiral / Vice Admiral / Rear Admiral, as you already did with your Leaders aswell.
I didn't want to change your Leaders stats.. only for Tamon Yamaguchi maybe he should earn a boost. But look below (Marked in Red)
All other stats are unchanged. None of your Leaders are removed but some have different Entries / Removal. Much closer to history i think. (I checked everyone many times)
Some like Tanaka don't work 100% , because i know you guys like to have a fixed season as much as possible. So they are sometimes 1 or 2 monther earlier or later.. So i moved them into another season.
For almost all Jap Leaders "Autumn" worked very well..i was really surprised and happy about that. Hope you guys like it.
I want to introduce 4 Vice Admirals
*** Chuichi Hara *** Autumn 1939 - Autumn 1944
Hara was the commanding officer of the Fifth Carrier Division of the Imperial Japanese Navy for the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
His command contained the two brand new aircraft carriers Zuikaku and Shokaku.
Later Hara was reassigned to command the 8th Cruiser Division, containing the large, fast heavy cruisers Tone and Chikuma, and their escorting destroyers, during the long, bitter struggle with the Americans for the Solomon Islands. Hara and his warships were present for two large battles in the South Pacific: the Battle of the Eastern Solomons and the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands.
*** Takeo Kurita *** Autumn 1942 - Autumn 1944
Kurita led his battleships in an intense bombardment of Henderson Field in Guadalcanal Campaign
This was the single most successful Japanese attempt to incapacitate Henderson Field by naval bombardment.
Kurita later commanded major naval forces during the Central Solomon Islands campaign and during the Battle of Philippine Sea.
Later In 1943, Kurita replaced Admiral Kondō as the commander of IJN 2nd Fleet.
The IJN 2nd Fleet included the largest battleships in the world, Yamato and Musashi. Additionally, the IJN 2nd Fleet included the battleships Nagato, Kongō, and Haruna, 10 cruisers and 13 destroyers. The largest japanse fleet.
*** Shoji Nishimura *** Autumn 1943
To have some naval generals in the end i had look which leaders fought until the end of war or died through battle.
Since we ignore the history on the remove table if Leaders died in battle, Nishimura is a good choice
Near the end of the war, Nishimura was named the commander of the "Southern Force" in "Operation Sho-Go", aimed at a final and decisive naval battle against the United States Navy in the Philippines. Nishimura was killed during the battle when his flagship, the Yamashiro was sunk after being hit multiple times from the U.S. battleships
*** Aruga Kosaku *** Autumn 1944
On 25 November 1944, he was given command of the battleship Yamato.
In April 1945, under Operation-Ten Gō, Yamato was assigned on a suicide mission against the American forces at the Battle of Okinawa
Stats changed on Tamon Yamaguchi.
He was, in short, the epitome of the traditional samurai - hot tempered, aggressive to a fault; a man who valued honor as the ultimate virtue", or as Japanese navy officer Masatake Chihaya said, the "Oriental Hero Type". He was very clever. I think he deserves a boost.
So thats it
To make it short again.
It's 3 Leaders in the beginning. (1939-1941) , from (1941 - 1944) it's 6 Leaders instead of 5.
And from 1944 - 1945 it's 4 Leaders.
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Any Feedback ? :-)
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I personally think that is awesome - although I'm not sure we will ever see 6 naval leaders being utilized - but it does give options and certainly it is during the height of conflict so it makes sense to me. Very good info!
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Hi - for the most part I like the ideas here - thanks for doing the homework! I think I would like to suggest a couple edits:
1) I don't think we need so many admirals in the mid war and it feels like some of these vice admirals are not necessary. I would perhaps remove Hara and Nishimura from the mix.
2) I don't want to make Yamaguchi better than Nagumo (in terms of either/or air re-roll or initiative). Nagumo should be the Japanese go-to admiral for carrier leadership early in the war. If you want to make Yamaguchi a 3 (or even a 4 if you want), I would take away his air re-roll.
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Thank you :-) Maybe one day you add my Name to the playtesting group in the rulebooks ;D
I'm ok with your suggestions Mark, just wanted to give you options. I can't wait to see the new generals in action :-) !
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Maybe one day you add my Name to the playtesting group in the rulebooks
way ahead of you. . .latest version of the rules (still a work in progress) attached
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Thank you :-)
I feel very honoured to be part of this great game & community for the last 9 years!
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Awesome contributions!!
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Working on the revised Japanese leaders now. Nearly have it done. I don't think I will be including Aruga Kosaku. He was only a captain (promoted to Vice Admiral posthumously). His only claim to fame was sailing the Yamato to its destruction.
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Wow, sounds like a short career...
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i only included him because give the japanese 3 leaders that exist over autumn 1944 till end and this was the only famous one that would work
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Japanese (as well as come chinese and US) leaders updated on the dropbox file as well as Japanese, US PTO and Chinese country sheets. Take a look and let me know what you think. . .I made a few adjustments from what was posted here.
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Hello Mark!
Yeah thank you i looked over it.
Mostly i like and look brilliant!
Except
1. Toshizō Nishio was a Japanese general, considered to be one of the Imperial Japanese Army's most successful and ablest strategists during the Second Sino-Japanese War, who commanded the Japanese Second Army - I think he is reflected too weak.
2. The Japanese has alot 0/0 Leaders compared to the Allied. Especially on the Sea Battles. I would give Kondo his 1/0 back at least.
3. You made many AHistorical Entry / Removal Tables especially on the Japanese Naval Leaders. Why?
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My first pass at Nishio did make him seem all that impressive - but, as the CinC of the China theater, his strategic value should at least be higher. Maybe a defensive re-roll. So, let me re-work him. I might have Okamura arrive later - maybe when Nishio is removed. . .
The Japanese only have two 0/0 naval leaders. . .the Americans have 3. I don't think they have all that many 0/0 naval re-roll guys, do you? I went back and forth on the Kondo naval re-roll, but the only time he really led a surface fleet in a battle, he got mauled and lost the Krishima - so not sure it is merited.
Where am I off with historical entries and exits? I want to make sure Mikawa and Tanaka are around for Summer and Autumn 1942 as they were critical in the battles around Guadalcanal - that is why I moved them up to Autumn 1941.
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Sorry had no free time earlier for Response..
maybe just my thinking but i somehow don't like 6 japanese ground 0/0 leaders stats while the allies have 0 and china 2.
Isn't it more fun to have some influence to the battle with some rerolls?
ok but i agree with kondo. You are right on him.
to the entries and Exits..
Nagumo (Currently Autumn 39-42)
Historical: From November 1940-April 1941, Nagumo was Commandant of the Naval War College.
Ozawa (Currently Autumn 39-42)
Historical: retired after October 1944 and leaded a Naval College
Yamaguchi (Currently Autumn 39-42)
Historical: Went down with an aircraft carrier in 1942. Dunno if we remove KIA Generals?
All others are correct i think. So not that many, i'm sorry for writing "many"
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After playing the pacific scenario once again.
I think going down from 5 to 3 autumn 1943 japanese naval leaders while the allied naval leaders go up from 4 to 6 in spring 1944 is a bit too harsh and unneeded.
Seeing your splited fleets with no chance of any reaction makes not that much fun.
i think sometimes a 4th leader can help. The best option would be Shōji Nishimura. (Stats well.. not too high. Maybe 1-4-1-0 or 2-4-1-0)
Added in Autumn 1943. Gives you a little more flexibility.
Nishimura was named the commander of the "Southern Force"in "Operation Sho-Go", aimed at a final and decisive naval battle against the United States Navy in the Philippines while Ozawa leaded the "Northern Force".
Only for proposal due lack of Paint Skill :-)
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We've made a lot of changes to the Pacific leaders over the last few months - I think we need to run through a few playtests to understand the impact and how we need to adjust or add new leaders. Have you played a few Pacific games with the new leaders and identified the lack of late war leaders for the Japanese as a problem?
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Hello Mark.
I played only 1 game with the new leaders yet.
But that nothing new i always thought the japanesse Lack in naval leaders in Late game if you not Kamikaze with your ships.
i have to say i play with naval leaders Elimination If the whole Fleet is destroyed, then the Leader Is dead aswell.
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Hey guys,
i made some adjustments for my next test. i like to share with you.
- Added Admiral Lee for the U.S starting Spring 1942, i know it is a bit (should be around summer \ autumn 1942 i reality) earlier but the U.S somehow lack on pacific vice admirals that fit.
- Added an additional Medium Bomber to the U.S 1939 & 1941 Setup. (To playtest the Doolittle raid we dicussed on another thread)
Adjusted the Japanese table.
- Removed the Removal of Yamaguchi as he is killed in Action. Like other leaders that are KIA and not removed i wanted to bring this one in line.
- Added Nishimura in Autumn 1943
- Added the Removal of Ozawa in Autumn 1944