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WWII: Struggle for Europe____WWII: Struggle for Asia => Game Design => Topic started by: Darkman on September 09, 2014, 07:15:22 AM
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Hey guys,
as i really like the improvement to naval mechanics, i think the movement "attack" range and the 1 battle per turn is still too short.
Looking at this map and comparing it with the playing Map the movement range you can use to attack other ships or to do strategic combat needs a overthinking.
What do you guys think about a strategic attack also on "8" ? Removing the 6 or keeping it only for Subs?
(Didn't compare the Sub vs battleship\cruiser.. surface ranges ...) Maybe you?
Having a "second movement phase" for tactical moving ships to lay a trap for home moving ships. (Next rule ->)
And another rule where surface ships that move back to port(Actually in the Non-Combat Phase) can be forced for a battle again if the move through sea zones where enemy tactical ships are still present.. So if the ship that moves back home is damaged , then it must start in the reserve row any can only fire back if it isn't hit.. if it is not damaged it can fight 1 round of combat normally before moving home. Several battles can occur on the way home.
It would need to have strategic moved ships first back to port (initiave winner first) . before tactical moving ships move back to port.
What do you think ?
Edit: my graphic counts 7 spaces but it should be at least 8 because the Bismarck started in Gotenhafen
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Having trouble with how this might work in practice. The Bismarck can still make it to the Northern Convoy Zone with 6 MPs - just can't make it there by going North of Iceland like it historically did. Not sure if we should change the movement rules just to accommodate the movement north of Iceland as the Germans can achieve the same results.
Extending range for economic warfare may have lots of unforseen consequences too (like German battleships raiding the East Coast of the US) - which seems unlikely.
The Germans can achieve historically what they did during the war - just not the exact way they moved to the convoy zone.
As far as a second movement, I've always liked the idea, but not sure how to implement in practice. It needs to be playtested and thought out more. I am unsure what kinds of actions one might do that could 'game' movement without thinking through it more.
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Ok thanks, i know the map can't give all wishes and historical facts or ranges. It's a game.. a good game :-)
Maybe the best of WW2 games. (At least that i know)
I'm happy you guys sometimes thinking about a second attack movement for ships. It will think about it more. Maybe one day we find a good rule about it :-)
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I'm not opposed to tweaking the naval movement rules. In fact, I am wanting to playtest the Pacific with naval units moving and attacking on both the regular movement phase and on the mech phase (2 tactical movement in both phases). I just think any changes need some careful thought and playtesting. Definitely want to hear your ideas on how you think naval movement could work better - please keep some ideas coming on this topic. . .
Mark
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Thinking a little bit more on this. . .
Perhaps, similar to the air unit reaction phase (CAP), we could integrate a naval reaction concept into that part of the action phase as well.
Naval units that do not move on the regular chit draw movement are eligible to react (similar to planes not moving on the chit draw phase are eligible to react).
Eligible naval units perhaps could react to an adjacent sea zone and succeed in intercepting on a 1-4, and react to enemy naval units 2 spaces away on a 1-3, 3 spaces away on a 1-2 and 4 spaces away on a 1.
The reacting naval player could break his eligible naval units into separate task forces and roll them separately in order to get a chance with a least one searching TF.
Combat for intercepting ships would be resolved after any naval or strategic combat taking place in the sea zone where the enemy naval units ended their movement. So - if the German fleet sailed to attack a convoy zone, they would resolve their convoy strategic battle before the interception battle. .
Just some thoughts - not completely thought out yet. . .
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Hey Mark
I'm happy we revisit this topic. I hope we find a not too complex way to figure out naval movement.
Maybe some CAP rule that ships and planes can react on the return to port movement phase trying to intercept ships that return home and forcing them to 1 round battles
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Hello Mark,
after a longer break on this Topic i want to give a deeper look into that.
The Bismarck had a range of maximum 8,870 nmi (16,430 km; 10,210 mi) at 19 knots (35 km/h; 22 mph)
A VII Submarine had a range of maximum 8,500 nmi (15,700 km; 9,800 mi) at 10 knots
A IXB Submarine had a range of maximum 10,500 nmi (19,400 km; 12,100 mi) at 10 knots
A IXC Submarine had a range of maximum 13,850 nmi (25,650 km; 15,940 mi) at 10 knots
A XXI Type Submarine had a range of Maximum 15,500 nmi (28,700 km; 17,800 mi) at 10 knots
From Port Hamburg to New-York it is 4195 nautical miles. (direct line)
It's too bad that the direct line isn't even reachable for naval vessels. It would be at least 9 Zones to reach the east coast along the english channel
But another Route along the danish straits are 8 movement zones.
So we could say 8 strategically for the Bismarck might be correct and in combat and hiding situations you would use more fuel.
The Submarines feel a bit under ranged maybe. But maybe the XXI type can get a special rule for increased movement maybe 12 (instead of 8 ) sea zones.
But after reading a book about Operation Rheinübung. Germany had also supply ships in Position to extend the range of the Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen.
Maybe we could either let Merchant Raiders do the Job or introduce a supply ship for Germany to give them an increased Operation range.
Maybe we can introduce a new movement Phase / intercept Phase where ships & Planes that didn't move in the normal Phase can now move in order to attack Surface ships or move into sea zones where they can snap fire / intercept Surface ships that try to move back to friendly port.
Another rule i really would like to see is that ships that are attacked by a snapfire can at least fire back... modified or not. If i read the rules correct , you can defend against submarines snapfire with ASW, Air snapfire with AA .. but you can't defend against surface naval snapfire fire , which i think is a bit strange. Correct me if this is already possible
What do you think?
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I have been giving this some thought and have not come up with a good alternative yet.
You can reach North America from Hamburg via strategic movement, but you are correct, you can not so this via the English channel. I think this is more due to map distortion (having North America up in the corner rather than in a sea zone or two off the map directly across from Spain & France.)
8 strategic movement seems to work pretty well. I could see increasing it to 10 even without that much play difference - but 8 seems to work pretty well for most movements.
6 movement for strategic warfare also seems to work with the game mechanics. Units may not be able to take the historical route to get to convoy zones - but they can reach them (i.e. the Bismarck can't loop up North of Iceland to reach a sea zone to do economic damage, but can reach a convoy zone through another route). If we extend the range too much, then weird things start happening, like the Bismarck attacking US coastal shipping off of New York or something . . .
I'd like to come up with some kind of naval movement in the mech phase, but nothing seems to work right that we have thought of yet. The intercept / reaction movement idea is not a bad one, but, I think the UK would just keep their surface fleet always in react mode and we would never see the German surface ships sortie. I think I like the chit draw better, with the British fleet potentially having the opportunity to sortie and intercept on a later chit draw that a different phase.
Maybe this would not be a bad thing. . .what actions could naval units do on the mech movement and combat phase? Maybe there is an opportunity to trim movement to 3 tactical and 6 strategic. If you move tactical 3, you can move tactical 3 again on the mech phase. If you move strategic 6, you could move strategic 6 again on the mech phase. Amphibs and strategic attacks can only take place on the regular movement phase (increasing amphib range to 3 spaces). We would do away with 8 space strategic movement (as units would get to move 6 in the regular phase, 6 in the mech phase and another 6 in the NCM phase). If the Bismarck moved 6 to attack a convoy zone in the regular movement phase, it could get attacked by British ships within 3 spaces during the mech phase.
Perhaps we could let ships accompanies by a replenishment ship or a merchant raider get +1 movement? This would enable the Bismarck, accompanied by a merchant raider to move out to 7 spaces.
One thing I do not like with the current naval movement dynamics, is the ability for enemy ships to sail around a fleet after it has moved to block is movement back to a friendly port on the NCM phase - forcing the naval units to move to another port. For example, in our latest game, Cunningham and the British fleet move to interdict German supplies from getting to North Africa by attacking the Tobruk port supply sea zone. On a later chit draw, the Italians move a couple cruisers off of Alexandria, owning that sea zone, and preventing Cunningham from returning to Alexandria and forcing him to NCM to Gibraltar instead.
The above suggestion could perhaps address that too, if Cunningham was within 3 spaces of Alexandria, he could swing back on the mech phase and attack the Italians.
Naval 'mech' movement would be handled like ground mech movement - i.e. the initiative owner would move all his units first followed by the initiative loser.
I don't know - something to think about.
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Another alternative is a redesign to the North Atlantic - I came up with this this morning. . .which I think I may be liking better than what we have. . .
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The example that Mark gave above happened to me a couple of times. It's unrealistic, and frustrating the least, it's something that needs to be fixed ASAP.
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mh the last time i saw iceland it was left from scotland
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[Slightly Edited] Please read again :)
WoW thanks for huge Response Mark.
i will try to give a proposal or something to think about
I hope you guys can follow me with my not 100% perfect english ;D
I have the follwing idea for you.
Merchant Raiders (Nearly had similar idea as you)
- Raiders can also act an an fuel Supply for Ships / Submarines if not going out for attacking
- Whenever you move through an merchant raider. you gain an extra of 1 movement point in the movement Phase or Intercept Phase (cumulative)
By doing this the merchant raider will immediately get an axis marker (So it is attackable on further movement chits)
- You can move them in the intercept Phase also so this leads sometimes to suprises. (If not moved in normal Phase)
Snapfire changes
- As i said before in the rules you can defend against air snapfire with AA and against submarine snapfire with ASW.. but not against naval snapfire which i find kinda odd.
My proposal is to let the ships shoot back in an 1 Round battle.
Intercept Phase
This Phase is before the Strategic movement Phase
- Ships & Planes (NoT Heavy Bombers / Transport planes , Transport ships) that have not moved in the movement phase can move now tactical into empty or own controlled sea zones.
- Ships that are in intercept mode get an token or marked by an die.
- Initiative winner first
Phase done
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Strategic Movement Phase
- Now on the strategic movement Phase ships have to return to either harbors or submarines to merchant raiders.
- I know in the current rules it says you have to look out for fortified Harbors before normal Harbors.. but i don't see why this should be forced at all. Leave it as a player choice?
- Ships can move up to 8 Movement Points + 1 extra Movement(cumulative) if moving through merchant raiders but you can only use each merchant raider once a turn for this.
So you have to set up your merchant raiders wisely.
- The Initiative winner and then the initiative looser moves his ships back that moved in the movement Phase but not the ships from the Intercept phase. (Still marked by an marker / die)
- Ships can move through enemy controlled territory sea zones if the player wishes.
- Only ships in intercept mode can start battles. (1 Round battles)
- Each intercept force can only start 1 battle
- If you move through an intercept force you roll on table to look if a battle occurs (don't have values but something like the asw tables.. but the more ships you move through the higher is the Chance you will get intercepted).
- If the sea Zone has an Enemy control marker the chance to be intercepted will be even higher..because you get detected more easily or you get an cumulative +1 on the intercept table for each enemy controlled sea zone you move into on your way home. (Except for submarines)
This can occur once per sea Zone for the fleet that moves home and is active.
If it goes bad for you you will get attacked several times on your way home (1 Round battles)
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After all ships moved back.. the intercept forces move back to ports aswell (no further combat)
Not testet but that's just something i had in mind, and it's not too complex. I hope you get the idea.
Tell me what you think
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Need to give it some thought. . .
in the meantime, my update to the North Atlantic Sea zones
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Another easy fix to have a small fleet block the way to a harbor to a much bigger one will be to have one round of combat before you can go through an "enemy" sea zone.
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Need to give it some thought. . .
in the meantime, my update to the North Atlantic Sea zones
I really appreciate ;D that you try to bring it in a historical way that works.. but i see at least 3 new issues with this.. let my give you a screenshot.
Sorry for the graphic mess it is rushed
I really don't know if map Fixing will be the ideal "kings" way to let it work. Another Thing that came in my mind today.. maybe a bonus movement Point when moving through the norway route and controllig norway... as the german fleet Group was hiding there.
1. Green: From Norway to USA
6 spaces now.. Strategic attack nightmare?
I think it should be only possible to do strategic attacks from western France (Brest & Bay of biscay) At least without Merchant Raiders / Supply ships and so on
2) Red: From Leningrad to Baltic Sea
Bombing the Axis Naval Forces and having only two sea zones between them might be
no fun ? What do you think?
3) Yellow: Bismarck Route
I think the yellow route would be more correct one? i edited the sea zones a little so it is possible to move from 3 - 4. I think the origional Position of "Bergen" looked a way better.
4) No Color: Iceland
I don't know if it is intended because it's not possible to invade iceland as axis at all with current rules to ships and Harbors in the NCM phase.. Didn't the allied fear that Germany could invade iceland so they invaded it themselves ?
5) No Color:
Do you think the convoy zone you moved so high.. Looks good there? Moving it one down makes so much more logical sense for an convoy route from us to england on this map? I might be wrong so please correct me. I would say we think about a movement bonus through the rules above , another rules or throug territory movement bonus.. or whatever.
The convoy zone feels not so good.. but if like it too much, i would move also the convoy Zone in the middle one Position higher so it is out of bomber range from brest and more in line with the two others convoy zones
6) Prinz Eugen route
Would likley work i think. Even tho historical they got supplied by supply ship in the atlantic before reaching home to Brest
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OK, further map edits (easier right now than having to think about the rules :) )
Hopefully this gets it a little better & addresses most of the concerns you raised.
I also like it that the furthest West convoy zone on the edge of the map is not in range of u-boats based from Germany and can only be reached once France has fallen. . .this was intended, but did not make the last map edit.
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Yeah it fixes some issues.. One i found is .. as british you can no longer move tactical from Irish sea to the West convoy zone if this is an issue. But you can now move tactical from usa to York
Also still the Operation Rhine Excerise Is not working as it is 7 spaces ;-) maybe you take a look in my rules Suggestion . It would make it possible and i would love to see multiple naval battles and as an Axis you would Need a Strategy to move Out of the Atlantic without getting Killed and not having a Walk through the Park when moving home.
A Mechanized movement phase wouldn't work for this because the Initiative .. You could just move home before the other player can do anything. Or he has to move his ships home before he can do anything .. We Need an extra phase where ships are on Combat naval Patrol but with an Intercept table where you can't be sure that you find the enemy ships .. so you have several options .. Moving out your ships in movement Phase to snapfire ships before they can do any damage, moving tactical to attack ships and Defending the convoys .. Or Waiting and trying to select the jewels you try to Intercept in their way Home.. But whatever you will do .. The Defender should be able to Fire back in any Form .. Snapfire , combat , Intercept ..
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So we should be expecting a European map modification in the near future?
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Too early to say yet. . . needs to be play tested and discussed more.
I think we may leave the naval rules as they are now, but provide some sort of 'advanced' version of naval movement and combat once we hammer this out some more for people to try out.
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I think you should keep sea invasion to 2 sea zones, as it is very difficult to logistically support it from that far, plus will eliminate unhistorical situations. You should still keep the 8 zone strategical move on the regular phase, but these units dont get to move in the mech phase, with the proposed rule, transports only get to move 15 instead of 16 zones, that can create some problems for the Allies reinforcing North Africa, especially when India and Australia is out of the game.
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Based on the last redesign.
Are These two changes now an issue or fine in your eyes? (Green Lines)
Otherwise i like the Map changes a LOT !
As i read today the Bismarck wasn't on full capacity when leaving Gotenhafen and did NOT want to be refuelled in Bergen because they didn't want to waste time after they got sighted.. this was a mistake because they had to reduce speed to reach the French coast for a save return....
The Prinz Eugen was refuelled in Bergen & in the North atlantic tho..
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Map Suggestion to fix 2 more issues
1. The Bismarck Route (I changed the Sea zones in the Baltic Sea )
2. Airforces that bomb Leningrad from Königsberg through Sea territory. (Red Lines)
Königsberg should be out of range for this through Sea territories as it is through Land.
The Luftwaffe 1 was in Estonia / Riga / Latvia to Secure Finnland & Bomb Leningrad + Nothern Territories.
The Luftflotte 5 was in Finnland to do the same. (Blue Lines)
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I read your suggestions and tried to implement. i would still not to give up this idea too fast aswell . Due to the map edits i cut some rules down.
Snapfire changes
- Ships shoot back in Snapfire attack (1 Round battle) After that if the ship is not damaged / retreated it can continue it's movement.
Combat Sea Patrol
This Phase is after the Mechanized Movement Phase.
- Initative Winner \ Loser can move tactical Combat Ships & Combat Planes (Except Heavy Bombers) that haven't moved in any movement phase. They can not enter sea zones where naval battles occured in the previous turn. This reflects the hunt and contact losing to ships that are no longer on the same Position as the CSP fleets moving later
- Ships that are in Combat Sea Patrol marked by an die.
- Combat Ships, Submarines & Planes that did not fight in the movement Phase can snapfire these CSP ships if they move through your sea Zone or go into Combat Sea Patrol Mode itself and stay in that sea Zone.
Mark Control of Sea zones
- Additional to the rules place a control Marker on every sea Zone where you have a CSP unit.
Strategic Movement Phase
- Ships have to return to either harbors or submarines to merchant raiders. Ships can freely decide to move to normal Harbors.
- The Initiative winner and then the initiative loser moves his ships back that moved in the movement Phase but not the Units that are in Combat Sea Patrol. (Still marked by die)
- Only ships that are on Combat Sea Patrol can start attacks (1 Round battles) but each unit that is in CSP can only start 1 battle.
- Ships can move freely through enemy controlled territory sea zones but when moving through enemy owned Sea zones the enemy can activate it adjacent ships & Planes that are in CSP To join the hunt. If they do , there are activated aswell and can not start any further battle.
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After all ships moved back.. The CAP fleet / planes move back to ports / airfields aswell (no further combat)
OR
Optional:
When activating a CSP Group you remove the die Marker.
You always check if the initiative Winner and the the initiative Loser had ships to return before the ones in CSP ( Still Marked by die ) If both Sides have only CSP Forces still in sea then the initiative Winner Starts to bring home his units. If another battle occurs through this you check again moving the activated units before moving further CSP units..
Historically this was often happend that after a battle they didn't like to stay too Long in their positions because enemy submarines / ships were Approaching ..
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I can't remember why we prevented ships from moving through enemy controlled sea zones on the non-combat movement phase. . .perhaps this is something that needs to be done away with even in the current rulls system. . .it creates some odd 'gamey' things and i can't remember now why we thought it was important to prevent. . .
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Maybe it was just carried over from the old system where you used ZoCs?
How do you like my map changes (Baltic Sea) ?
By the way thinking more about your map changes (Green lines)
I think they are pretty fine. Moving Tactical from US to York shouldn't provide any problem.. and the west convoy Zone should seems logical for the distance to be 5.
All other changes you made on the map are such an improvement and more realistic. I would instantly print it ;-)
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I think we can do away with that rule. It's more for supply than anything else at this point..:
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@ Mark & John .. Any chance to make a map out of your ( atlantic ) and mine map changes (baltic sea) + the changes you guys made to rivers ?
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I am working on it and then will turn over to John to make changes in the map file. Not sure what his timing / schedule looks like. Please make sure there are not other edits you would like to suggest.
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I am working on it and then will turn over to John to make changes in the map file. Not sure what his timing / schedule looks like. Please make sure there are not other edits you would like to suggest.
No i would be happy if i could test our changes.
I think again and again about your and my changes.
They fix alot of Little issues and i don't see any problems with it.
Please make it happen so i can print & test 8)
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I await Marks orders :)
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No waiting on me. . .John has the North Atlantic/Baltic map changes - he just needs to make them and post the new version in the dropbox. . . Here is the update again:
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I think a new Problem occurs. Since now ships are allowed To move through enemy controlled sea zones in The final movement, the italian Navy has no Option to stop the allies sending reinforcements (Transports with troops ) through the Gibraltar straight. As a british You just always wait in Gibraltar until final movement and move 8 spaces to the North africa territories.
I still would like to see some Intercept rules to Block this.
Solution:
So every ship / plane that moved tactical and did not attack / snapshot Is in an Intercept Mode and can stay in the Sea zone.
Planes have the option to stay in the sea zone and skip the landing phase ( after mech phase).
The initiative Winner and then the initative Loser moves his ships and planes back at the end of the final movement phase. ( after all other ships that attacked or moved strategically)
Planes in "Intercept Mode" Land now but have no further movement. (No 2x range)
Ships & Planes in Intercept Mode have a chance to attack ships moving through their sea zone (or maybe also adjacent) in final movement can roll on a new intercept table and then trigger a battle.
What do you think ?
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Hi Darkman - sounds a bit complicated - but you can try them. Remember that ships end movement in port - not sure that this has any real effect on the game. You want to slow movement to Gibraltar - park some uboats and threaten to snap fire at ships - that usually slows Allied redeployment down...
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Or take Gibraltar ;)
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Hey John :-)
A too complicated rule in a very complex game ? :o
Hehe you joking with me ;-))
I auctally try to block the redeployment without any risks in the non-combat movment.
A simpler rule would fix it too.
"like you can't unload troops from a sea zone with an enemy control marker on it "
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8)