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WWII: Struggle for Europe____WWII: Struggle for Asia => First Edition Game => After action reports from first edition => Topic started by: m7574 on July 18, 2012, 03:59:12 AM
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So we've played this thing maybe 10 times now. We've had the last 4-5 games come down to the last two turns. Very exciting! Holding the last 10 VP is awfully difficult for the Axis, no matter how well the game has gone for Germany. The Allies just need to hold on and not get clobbered too badly in 1940-1942. The most popular strategy in Europe of late has been to all but ignore Africa while building a massive Barbarossa army to siege Moscow and move south in order to activate Turkey by capturing the Caucusas. Russia is pushed to the brink, holding at or just in front of the Urals and behind the Volga. German airpower is immense! Russia can not hope to go on the offensive, or even hold her ground, until the luftwaffe is redeployed to the west. I have found it very difficult to play Russia well.
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Well that is great news - going to the last 2 turns - I love nail biters. It sounds like you have some great strategies worked out on both sides - so good playing to make it this far consistently!
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Our games are real chess matches. we both play it pretty safe and don't take big risks. Objectives are usually withdrawn from rather than fought for once an overwhelming force is at the gates. -at least where large armies are concerned. We play with limited airbase capacities and give Japan a factory on the "2" box to start the game.
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So - the Germans push the Russians all the way back to the Urals and still the Allies are able to come back and win? I think in most of our games, if the Russians are pushed back that far and if Turkey gets triggered for the Axis it is about over for the Allies. . . how does the North Atlantic, Western Europe and the Med typically play out in your games?
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Once Germany turns its luftwaffe back to the west Russia gains ground back quickly. Russia withdraws to the Urals often times without a fight, preserving her army for the fight later. Yes, Turkey is usually triggered. The Istanbul objective becomes a forted down stronghold until the end.
Western Allies have obviously taken Africa and forced Italy to submit. They usually land in France a little early, as soon as air superiority is gained. Germans have elected to turn the entire luftwaffe against the Western allies in order to delay said landings as long as possible. This spares the russian factories and keeps the red army pumping out tanks, which they will need to move fast enough to race to Poland, Berlin and the Balkan objectives.
Keep in mind if Germany is making this hard of a push deep into russia, very little can be spent on other fronts, so the allies are not troubled.
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I have told my opponent that his flaw in defending the Reich has been his reliance on Axis and Allies tactics. He holds objectives with overwhelming numbers or pulls out. I told him if he makes them a attainable yet expensive it makes the allies job much more precarious. We'll see if he learns his lesson this time!
Scott has mastered the art of the blitzkrieg. He has had trouble defending the collapse of the Reich. He was one of the best ever in Axis and Allies. Its only a matter of time until he masters this too.
The last game we played the Axis should have won. But a push to hold enough objectives in spring '45 wound up being a dissaster. 60 german armor units wound up cut off from supply in Paris as bold allied counter offensives captured the needed VP's to stay in the game while moving on Berlin.
winning in spring 1945 is much more attractive than a pyhric victory of 10VP's on the final turn. He wanted a decisive victory! lol
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60 armor?
OMG
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Our games are more of a chess match. As soon as one side has the upper hand, the other side withdraws and avoids an engagement, fearful of decisive dice. Until 1945, anyway. So 60armor in late 1944 was the result.
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Axis are now doing much better in our games. A full throttle Barbarossa can be devastating. We have been playing with a factory in japan's "2" box at game start. Pulls a lot of allied attention to the Pacific. We really like the extra economic punch it gives Japan. If the Axis are determined to have the advantage I'd prefer to add a little help to the Allies in some way rather than remove the jap factory.
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I am glad that you guys got past your earlier troubles and now see how much fun this game can be. ;D
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The pendulum has swung significantly. We are seeing nearly certain victory for the Axis in 1943 now. If Germany purchases all its fts, Mech inf and armor every turn, as well as the paratrooper, Russia collapses to the Urals every time. 30arm 30mech inf and 25 aircraft in the wide open eastern front is unstoppable.
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One strategy i have not tried is to NOT try and slow down the whermacht. Concede Moscow in the Fall of '41 and try to stack stalingrad. Fort down there and behind the river. Set my defense behind the Volga immediately. That seems like it makes things too easy for the germans though.
The problem I am having on the eastern Front is that the mechanized whermacht can encircle my army to easily. I have to hold my ground in two territories. The germans can hammer my army when its split in two. not to mention the fact that any territory that is not defended by a pile of AA guns can be straeffed by 25-30 aircraft. Can't afford to lose 6-7 infantry to one german inf every german turn. Having 5 forts there makes it a wash, so my thought is that by forting down early in rear positions I could neutralize the straeffing issue.
One would think that if germany is putting this much effort into the eastern front that they would be vulnerable in other areas. But when the luftwaffe can get anywhere in one turn but the RAF needs two turns or more, its not the case. We play with airbase rules, btw. The airbase rules make it so much more difficult to weed the Italians out of Africa. And impossible to eliminate their fleet. :/
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What's happening on the West - the Allies should be aggressive with everything focused vs Russia...
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This is all happeneing before the USA has mobilized. 1941 and early 1942. UK is busy trying to hold as many objectives as they can. They can execute a couple nuicance raids in Western Europe, but that is about it. If every single RAF fighter ever built is kept in the British Isles, you could try and land and hold, but without the USA being ready you'd get pushed off quickly. Risk losing ground in other front and be unable to hold objectives necessary to stay in the game. Its not like you are going to take Paris. Russia just crumbles too fast.
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Hard to judge without seeing things - sometimes if France is weakly held - Allies land just to draw forces away and buy time...
Many times - after the Axis reaction - we just pick up and leave...
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Done that. But with the Russians completely lacking firepower they cannot take much advantage of that. You wind up wasting your time as well as theirs.
With the airbase rules the allies must be very careful as well. Their aircraft take two turns or more to deploy around the world. If you attempt the Dieppe Raid manuever you need to have the aircraft available to get back to the British Isles should the Luftwaffe completely redeploy to the Atlantic coast. The Euro Axis have a huge advantage here as they can deploy their aircraft anywhere they need in a single turn with 100pct strength. Allied aircraft are restricted to their airbase values.
The biggest issue I have with the game so far is that the Axis do not seem to neeed to take any risks to win the game. Brute force and overwhelming strength through 1943 push the allies to the brink and often over it. The Russians cannot afford to even TRY to contest the German army. I have successfully slowed them down for a couple seasons by careful positioning, but still find myself behind the Volga.
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I should fly in my Soviet player. Dan is a great Uncle Joe- just ask Mark! ;) ;D :P
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Usually there is a counter strategy for a single approach - hard to determine without seeing everything. Can the Axis player counter his own strategy...?
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Obviously he knows what would bother his tactics more than anyone else. And as good as I think I am at these games i am not so arrogant as to think that nobody can do it better. But as of now the "Russia Crush" sure seems hard to beat. Time will tell.
This time i am trying to hold Leningrad and the forest territorry next to it. I am fairly certain he will bypass it, take moscow in the spring of '42, then have an attack on the Urals in the autumn. Most of the south has been given up but I'll try to hold Baku and Tblisi. I should be able to have 30inf in the Urals by the time his army is ready to attack so at least I can make it painful for him. The problem will be Russia having very little income by then. We'll see how it goes though. Hold the Forest and Mountain territories!
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Got any pics - maybe we could help - ! ;)
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That wouldn't be very gamesman like. I'll figure it out.
I am just a little suprised you guys hadn't tried out the full onslaught of Russia.
I think I am having a little more success this time around. I think I'll be able to hold the northern forests. Boy is it dicey though at first.
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I happen to be a bit too tentative in my German attacks, especially against the really good players that I game with. Thought the last time we played I did hit Dan with a few different wrinkles that put him back on his heels and allowed me to get out to near the Urals.
It always seems that the Germans are just a little too weak to cover all the bases. That with good play, the Allies can find an opening that forces a shift of valuable resources to help shore up the cracks. And in doing so, the full force of the Wehrmacht isn't being exerted upon the Soviets. Usually it is the Luftwaffe that has to come back and cover the Italians in the Med and the Atlantic French coast.
What Dan (or any good Soviet player) does is to give himself enough of a mobile counter force that he can strike into any openings that the Germans leave on the Eastern Front. There is enough maneuver room on the front that he can strike out from the flanks after the Germans have blown by. The forest in the north and the mountains of Sevastopol are key spots for counter forces to hide.
Have you placed enough in Sevastopol to retain it? If not, then it is an easy path for the Germans to the Caucasus and your doom. It is what usually gets me beat as the USSR. And usually what hurts me as the Germans because I don't take it.
Bypassing Leningrad is one thing, especially if you can eventually put it OOS, but the thrust to Stalingrad is precarious if Sevastopol still stands.
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Understood - your post sounded like a cry for help - which is perfectly normal for a Russian player!
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The Russians can't get odds on the defense ANYWHERE. That was my biggest concern. finally gave up trying to hold Moscow, even for a little while. Can't be done. What I have decided to do was stand my ground in places where the German player has to spend his mechanized units, even if its a losing battle for me. If you can take out 15-20 mech units, its worth losing 20-25 Russians, I think.
No, I did not have the forces to hold Sevastopol and the forests necessary to keep Leningrad in supply. Stalingrad is up for grabs. My southern army will be stationed close to the turkish border. The one thing Russia has going for them is that most of my armies will be in forests or mountains so that if the germans want to attack and capture any of the strongholds I choose to hold, they will need to bring most of their army. Which means the other strongholds should be able to attack out of their prepared positions.
On a side note, the most devastating piece the Germans have is paratroopers. As if the mech component wasn't enough.....
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Well - looking forward to see how things work out!
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On a side note, the most devastating piece the Germans have is paratroopers. As if the mech component wasn't enough.....
The Germans must produce a second paratrooper (if not a third) to help them, not only to drop in the right place to control Soviet retreats, but to also force the USSR to use up units in an attempt to garrison in depth.
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We both almost always max-produce the para units. Its only 1 extra PP to build. Why wouldn't you build them? Most dangerous piece in the game. How do you defend the rear positions when there are 6-8 of them that can hit you anywhere at a given time.
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We both almost always max-produce the para units. Its only 1 extra PP to build. Why wouldn't you build them? Most dangerous piece in the game. How do you defend the rear positions when there are 6-8 of them that can hit you anywhere at a given time.
I don't see how you can realistically get that many into play without hurting yourself somewhere else in the unit count. Also, you would need that many bombers too.
I have seen a high bomber count once or twice before, but we are usually trying to get as many other units on the ground as possible. That kind of long term building plan gets trumped by boots on the ground now.
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one extra PP for a para unit is a worthwhile investment considering its special abilities. It is still a boot an the ground. Having 6 German/Italian bombers is not out of the ordinary for Scott. Remember, Russia is pushed back to the Volga in 1942 and Germany is collecting over 100PP a turn.
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The last game went to the Axis again. :/ I split the Russian defense into 3 armies and tried to hold the Urals, the territorry on the Turkish border and Lenningrad. Germany took heavy casualties taking Lenningrad and in assaults behind the Urals. But ultimately Russia was taken out of the game. They were left collecting 15-18 PP per turn and germany was able to turn the Leftwaffe back to the west since the russian factories were either taken or left out of supply.
Allies landed in France in early 1943. They had a foothold and would eventually take Paris and Rome, but an axis victory was certain as the allies could not retake objectives in eastern europe. At least we were able to drag it out into late 1944.
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I'm surprised Russia always falls apart for the Allies in your games. Do the Germans not take any casualties early on in France or commit anything to the Med? Maybe the problem with the games you have had have less to do with Russia and more to do with Allied actions in 1939-1941? The Allies should mop up the Med if the Germans do not put adequate resources there. Do the Germans divert any of their production to u-boats or is it all out tanks and plans for Russia?
What turn does France typically fall in your games? What kind of casualties do the Germans take in France? Can you give me a picture of what happens in the North Atlantic and the Med?
Sorry, we have just had very different results over the years and I am trying to understand the root cause of consistent Allied defeats in your games.
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The UK has to get back into the Med and apply pressure to the Italians and Southern Europe enough to drag German resources back to the West.
If you don't apply that pressure, then the Soviets are doomed.
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german air protects the Italian fleet. No German resources are spent on subs or the med otherwise. He just stacks Libya so as to not roll for Italian capitulation. Max build the mech and armor and ftrs. bombers when he can. Italy pops out a ftr or a bomber every turn.
Russia is forced to withdraw or be encircled, or if the reg inf catch up, get smoked in an attack. I am pretty sure my problem is not making the german player pay in other theaters. I have gone heavy in Africa and failed a few times.
We were both top ranked axis and allies players in the clubs so its not like one of us is a lot better than the other. We've been doing this stuff for YEARS. We ALWAYS find the loopholes in games and find ways to exploit them.
I am not saying the game cannot be won by the allies. won't concede that. But it is odd that russia can get trampled so badly.
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and yes, france has gone poorly for the allies lately. I've capitulated in the spring or 40, two out of the last three games :/
The game they survived until the Fall I did not kill enough Germans. I figure you need to kill about 15 germans in the defense of France and Belgium. We have started a new game, France surrendered in the summer and I did kill over 15 germans this time around :) we'll see how this goes.
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Looking forward to hear about Allied exploits this time! (no offense to the Axis)
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I think the difference in our games and what you have found in your games is Scott's view of the "most likely path to an axis victory". Scot is a "maximum force" kind of player who will efficiently muster the maximum available force to overcome one target while conceding just about anything else on other fronts. He feels Africa is waste of resources and is a distraction for the real goal. No subs, no airbases, no amphib attacks. the axis can hold their ground well enough until the USA is into the war. At that point Germany starts putting all their resources into defending vs the Western allies. With Russian territories fueling the german war machine, they rival the USA economically.
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Well - I love challenges! We tried to break the game - maybe you guys can do it. One extreme strategy deserves another...
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I hat that phrase. "break the game". Its such a harsh indictment. Even if the russia crush proves unstopable, we can always make house rules to make the game playable. We like this game a lot.
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Fair enough! Lets see how the Allies fare!
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Yes, "break the game" implies a flaw in the base mechanics.
Pushing the boundaries is more of an extension of the playtesting. We played enough to bring up different ways of winning or we found loopholes that the original guys hadn't thought of or thought viable. That is where rules refinements and set up changes then come in handy. Anything that can be modified and still allows the game to be played is what you want.
It is when you find a mechanism that so wrecks the playout that you have truly broken the game. I don't think that you are at that point.
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one rule change we agreed is necessary is making it harder for the Axis to get Turkey and Sweden. Getting those two cheaply just ruins the game. In our games, in order for Turkey to join the Axis Baku or Cairo must fall or reduce the Soviet forces on the border. Otherwise a "1" roll only yields the economic PP points but not the armies or terrirory control. A "1" for Sweden yields the other two PP's. To aquire their armies London must fall.
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Yes, we pushed for the one optional rule that makes those large neutrals a two step process to acquire.
Spanish and Turkish War Reluctance
Axis minors Turkey and Spain do not immediately join the Axis upon successfully rolling a trigger entry for them. Instead, it takes two successful trigger rolls to bring Spain or Turkey into the war. On the first successful trigger roll, Spain or Turkey become “pro-Axis” neutrals and contribute half of their production points to Germany rounded up (like Sweden) every turn. Upon the second successful trigger roll, Spain or Turkey join the Axis as a regular Axis minor ally as discussed above.
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We did this with with the advanced game