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WWII: Struggle for Europe____WWII: Struggle for Asia => General Discussion => Topic started by: m7574 on December 27, 2011, 07:13:58 AM
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The map showed up in the mail Saturday about 1pm. It was a Chrismas miracle! LOL. We got it set up and went over some gameplay details and got some gaming in yesterday -about 8hrs worth.
There are a few questions I have reguarding the game balance.
1) unit placement: Russia can effectively place 20 newly purchased units and rail 20 more to any given production center. Holy crap! How does Germany ever take more than one major VP city in Russia? A good Russian player seems to be able to handle the Whermacht every time.
2) Japan has no money! Until they DoW the Western Allies, they are stuck around 20. They don't seem able to ever get above 40.
It has only been 1/2 a game played, but balance seems to be in the Allies favor. By a lot. Sure mistakes can be made and such, but really good players seldom make those kind of mistakes.
I read a bunch of after action reports today from your website. Seems Eric wins whatever side he plays, lol. I avoided the pitfalls that a lot of the other allied players did not in most of those games. We acclimated to the rules awfully quickly, there were very few violations, and none which we could not quickly correct.
I guess I'd like to know if you guys agree the balance is pro-allied too. I'm ok with that, we could easily play with some sort of a bid, like giving japan/germany/italy a free factory, extra units at start, fewer victory city requirements, etc.
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wow, this website sure is quiet. Would anybody care to chime in here? I'd like to talk a little about this game.
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Hi!
It IS really quiet around here - must be all the holiday feasting going on.
Actually, we just got done playing 2 games of the Advanced game - so everyone in our group is recovering from 3 days of pretty intense gaming!
We have played a lot of games of the Struggle for Europe and I think it is pretty well balanced. The Axis have a lot of advantages early on and with aggressive play can often pull off a win. That being said, I would say the game is sightly weighted in the Allied favor. Before you start making tweaks to game balance though, I would play a few games with different players playing different nations. If the Allies win all 3-4 games, then make a change.
cheers - and hope you enjoy it as much as we do!
Mark
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Right - plus it really is difficult to dislodge well set up defenders so toward the end it becomes a difficult race against time for the Allies. They need the production - again - you will need to play it several times. We have had a lot of fun with the basic game!
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It seems extremely difficult to punch a hole deep enough into Russia to get and hold 28VP's in 1942. That and Japan is impotent. Little old China pushes them around if they build anything other than ground units. My current game should see 1944, but its no thanks to Japan.
We play slow and carefully, there are very few mistakes. Even so, tactical mistakes don't seem to hurt as much in this game because you can retreat instead of getting your entire Army Group demolished.
I am curious what you guys do with Japan. The game I built a factory really hampered the early war effort, the game my opponent elected not to build one saw a Japan not much better off. It made me wonder if i was missing something in the rules, like some Jap income from a neutral USA via some sort of trade agreement rule. Found nothing, lol.
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Man - it has been a while since I played that role.
Mark or Craig - any advice?
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Sorry guys, I was at Disney this last week and haven't checked in since before that.
Yes, the game is ultimately set up for an Allied win if you play it out to its fullest, but that is where the Bostonians scoring system shines! Also, give the adjusted VP system a try in which the bottom level early on is 24 instead of 28. It gives you a bit more leeway when prosecuting the early playout.
Really, the '39 game is based on the balance between the play of the German and UK players prior to Barbarossa. Until we got our UK play down, the European Axis kept trashing the convoys and busting out through the Middle East. Plus, we pushed Mark to come up with the alternate entry system for the US and USSR to give a better play of the game once we cleaned up our early Allied game play.
As the guys say, you need to play some more and push the boundaries of the system. Then try out some of the optional rules to see if they fix some of your concerns. Also, come forth with any ideas you might have on specific areas or rules and we can discuss them. We may have already gone over them previously and will have thoughts/answers for why things are the way they are.
Seems Eric wins whatever side he plays, lol.
Yes, he does!!!! :-[ :-[ :-[ :'(
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For me the original version is well balanced in the total game played 50% allies 50% axis victory.
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Plus - If I remember correctly - Mark was saying he was always just toying with Eric.... :o
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Plus - If I remember correctly - Mark was saying he was always just toying with Eric.... :o
He had his hands full with Dan on the Eastern Front, so there was no time for toying with Eric.
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I really like the 24 VP idea. Right now our allied play seems well ahead of the axis play. Russia has no problem handling the German advance, and playing the UK well has not been a problem either. There are a few things we have cleared up rule-wise that should make thinngs a little tougher as the UK player.
Japan seems to be the hardest to play. I will trust your opinion on the matter, we will just have to do better. I think for me that means no Jap factory. At least not for a while.
The struggle for me is not for Europe and Asia, its to convince my gamer pal that the axis have a good shot.
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We'll have to paradrop John in to play the Axis in a game for you :)
Japan can usually hurl almost all of their product at China early on - (using all of their planes and available troops) to really hammer the Chinese and put them on their back foot. Can really cripple them early on while their are building for a big jump when they strike at Pearl Harbor.
The Japanese can usually jump off and take a lot of VPs and islands in the first 2-3 turns of going to war with the Allies. Then it gets tougher. They will never win outright, but they can get themselves in a position to hold out on VPs long enough to win the game.
They also have a big advantage of a central position. They can choose to go for India, Australia or across the Pacific - usually the Allies can't defend against a focused Japanese effort effectively during the first few turns.
At least that is how I remember it.
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m7574- Where are you guys located? Did I read somewhere that you are in the Chicagoland area?
If you are close enough to the Detroit area, maybe I can schedule something where at least I (and maybe Eric) could meet up with you for a game.
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we are in Cedar Rapids Ia. If you make it all the way here you wouldn't need a hotel. I have a spare bedroom. Transporting this game and the whole set up takes a lot of time better used for game play. I'd be willing to work something out, whatever works out.
We've been known to play until the sun comes up the next day :)
The biggest logistical struggle we have in this game is the Non-Combat/Combat movement thing. We are so accustomed to performing it separately. I really do like this format however, as it eliminates the whole can-opener thing.
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Mark-
If John paradrops in, he'll be greeted much the same way as the allies were in Market-Garden!
I may be new at this game, but my Allied play will be tough.
Do you guys find a game season lasting like 2hrs? You know, once every nation has joined the war. With all nations moving at once it requires a lot of effort to make your move.
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Yes, the all Axis/all Allies game turn is much nicer to play with. It takes care of a lot of "goofiness" that is really showing up in the latest A&A version.
The strategic and normal movement all at the same time does take some different thinking- offensively and defensively. Then add in mech attacks and the ability for the defender to retreat and you really get a different experience!
And yes, once all the major combatants are in the game, it can take a long time to get through a game turn. Even with us having two players to a side we will still end up only getting in two and a half or three game turns in during our weekly Friday night sessions. That is quite variable at times based on the amount of combat is occurring.
It can get a bit uneven too depending on how you split up the nations on either side. But that doesn't seem to be your issue, with only two players.
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Paradrop in? My wife is not going to be happy...
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I think I may make a turn system to keep thing flowing better.
1) Germany, Italy
2) Russia
3) Japan
4) UK, USA, France
This will work at least until Russia and Japan are at war.
I have some vacation time to burn up. Maybe if you guys have some free time I could come to you Yope.
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I think I may make a turn system to keep thing flowing better.
1) Germany, Italy
2) Russia
3) Japan
4) UK, USA, France
This will work at least until Russia and Japan are at war.
What about China? :'( ;) We normally give it to USSR player (along with France) to give them something to do early on in the game.
I have some vacation time to burn up. Maybe if you guys have some free time I could come to you Yope.
We aren't playing right now, but may get back to it soon. We have done the full weekend thing before with the Bostonians flying in for the fighting. We could try to plan something later into the spring- March timeframe or so. I have a room in the basement (that I am 75% done remodeling) and I could probably talk my guys into coming to my place for the game instead of at our normal meeting place (Eric's house is now the Friday night venue).
Actually, a good thing to do is try to plan for a chance to play at a place like Origins or Gen Con Indy. Especially, if the Bostonians get back on the convention trail.
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Mark and I will probably try to make a con this summer... 8)
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Its been a while since i have been on the boards, changed the board look.
i wont hold by breath on the conventions for mark or john :) lol
if they can make origins, I think i will be there with reaper
Yall know my 2cents worth -- the basic rules favor the allies 90% of the time.
M7574 you can come to Dallas and play at ConDFW, A-KON, Fencon, Board game geek con, where i run the game at the local conventions, with my rule tweaks
kenb
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After you've played '39 a few times, try '41. I think that gives the Axis a better chance. At '41 setup you can see what an idiot Comrade Stalin was, just before you stick it to 'em! An experienced Allied player would never leave such an open mess. Also, if you are the Axis player and you have a run of bad luck before '41, you are even more hosed. Welcome to the best A&A club.
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You make very good points!
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We gave it another go this last weekend.
It looks like the Axis will get to 28VP in 1942. But geez, it doesn't look good to hold it. Japan elected not to build a factory this game. China is out of control despite building at least 3jap inf per turn. I think my mistake here has been not contesting allied aid to china. Can the Japs do this before being at war with UK/US? They'd have to bomb Burma.
Italy is completely neutered. Kicked out of Africa. Heavy Luftwaffe casualties in France and then vs the UK fleet in the Med. UK just seems to have their way when they should be on the ropes.
Taking france proves to be a terrible pain in the azz when the UK sends max units to defend it. The RAF is also able to overtake the Luftwaffe very early in the game, and before the Battle of Brittain.
There seems to be very little incentive for the UK to even try to defend London. Easy to recapture, no penalty for the UK if it happens. The UK is very difficult to beat down. They just have so much money..... and with the Germans taking heavy air casualties to take out France, the Italian fleet is pretty much screwed. If they go to war before the luftwaffe is able to be in position to defend the Italian fleet, Africa is lost.
I have a few ideas to improve the Axis play from here on, but it still looks ugly for the axis. Mostly because it seems like there is more room for allied play to become more aggressive and effective. I guess I am just suprised you guys find the axis with good odds to even make it to 1943.
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The Axis probably are not going to take any more VPs after 1943, but they have a good chance to hang on to enough to still win the game. Often the Allies have a lot of ground to take and they have to work against the clock.
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The UK is the main target in the early game. If they can keep things together, then yes the Axis are in trouble.
The Axis would like to get to Cairo and break out into the Middle East. That can only realistically happen if they are first highly successful in the Atlantic. The subs must do enough to the UK economy such that the UK can't build up enough in the Egypt.
That will also put the UK behind in their building up of defenses in the Pacific. Which the rapidly expanding Japanese can capitalize on.
The German production schedule is something to analyze if you want the optimal amount of units ready for your push into vast Soviet land areas. France must fall as fast as possible so that you have the time to turn and take the Balkans. The finally have the troops in position to go against USSR. The timetable is tight if you are playing the scripted out of the box rules.
There is some leeway in the game if you use the optional entry rules, but we still feel that the USSR chart is too scripted because it is based on what the Soviets themselves do instead of being dependent on the actions of the Axis.
No matter how you play it, the game is ultimately a timed VP challenge when it is played by competent people on both sides. You will only get an Axis victory if something goes seriously haywire on the part of the Allies.
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The issue we have is that a competent Allied player SHOULD win the game in 1942. That is not much of a game. Whats the fun in that?
The UK can send so much stuff to France that germany takes a major hit unless they get a fortunate capitulation diceroll. When that happens Germany can make a good drive deep into Russia, and perhaps get and hold enough VP to make it to 1943.
Japan has their hand full with China. China can have a stack of nearly 30inf ready to bust out when japan peels inf off for their winter '41 offensive. What a nightmare China becomes.
So am I right to understand their needs to be some bidding help or rule adjustments for a more evenly matched game? That is what it looks like to me. That is fine. I'm OK with that. We are getting a little tired of beating our head against the wall against the Allies. To be fair, the Axis have got into 1943, but it was thanks to a few Allied blunders. Even so, we started over each time trying to prove the Axis could make a run at it even-up.
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Yoper - what is your take on the Axis/Allied balance? I don't recall things being so lop sided. Is the Axis player very aggressive?
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I can't tell what is happening until I see what they are doing.
Our early play was almost always the direct opposite of what they are reporting. If you remember from our game sessions that we posted, we kept having the game blow up with the Axis shooting out into the Middle East. Then the Japanese jumping into the action to complete the domination by taking the rest of the needed VPs for the win.
We had the shifting of Mech units away from Poland down to a fine art such that we could have France taken care of by the end of the Spring '40 Turn. Which then set up the time to reposition for the Summer '41 turn of Barbarossa.
And if things went well in the Atlantic and the Middle East, the Barbarossa attack became secondary since German and Italian units would be in Persia, Turkey may have gone their way, and now India is threatened on two fronts.
As for China, as long as you maintain enough Japanese units to in key spots you force the Chinese to stay back in the mountains defending their ICs. Meanwhile, you are working your way into India, DEI, Philippines, etc.
Again, it is one of the situations where you need to play some other people to get an idea of what is possible.
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Yes - I recall during some playtests early on - we had the Axis winning more frequently and we had to balance a few things out. I recall the Allies having a position of less forgiveness if something went awry. I guess I would need to see the action...
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I usually recall China getting pounded by the Japanese early. John would usually bomb my production down to next to nothing and kill off all of the easier to destroy Chinese units he could before going to war with the US. Every Japanese plan on the board would be in China bombing the hell out of me until 1941. Not sure why China is so much tougher in your games.
But, if you guys want to make tweaks to balance things out for your group, you should play around with it. When we play, usually Germany can make short work of France in Spring or Summer. I guess may be 1 game in 6 France turns into a German disaster in terms of losses.
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Britain is sending the house to France. The goal is to make Germany attack a large stack. No freebee capitulation. Britain can get at least 5 units to France every turn if they utilize air transport. Even more after the first turn. Add to that a maximum RAF build every other turn and the Allies can gain air superiority. UK does not need to worry about german bombing and a major u-boat campaign until after France falls. Germany must use all resources to taking out the French or risk a game losing debacle. Italy has to be very careful to stay out of the war long enough for German aircraft to cover the fleet. With France adding 4inf, 1ATG or an AA gun every turn, France is tough. Sure Germany can overwhelm them eventually, but they take losses. Sometimes heavy, especially the luftwaffe.
The USA makes sure to send economic aid to China every turn. Yes, the Chineese are holed up in the mountains until 1942, but with a stack approaching 30inf. I admit the Japs have neglected to bomb China. That is one area where the japs can improve. I suppose if the bombing is carried out from the start, China will be reduced by 6-8 inf by 1942. That is good news. So there is a little promise there.
After France falls the UK, taking advantage of US lend lease is able to really put heat on Italy. They are able to supply Cairo with enough ground forces to at least hold the Axis at bay most of the time. I was able to get into the Middle East one game but that was due in large part to poor Allied play.
One rule we played with last game was starting the Summer 1940, the French capitulation role gets another +1, and increases every turn. This encourages France to make an attack or risk capitulating easily. France is also encouraged to split their forces early to defend multiple territories allowing Germany overwhelming odds on one territory at a time as well. Because if France is a debacle, the rest of the game is pretty much decided.
Thanks for all the replies guys.
We are both very skilled Axis and Allies players, being at or near the top of the online clubs in our hay-day. So we're not chumps. I admit there are certainly areas we may be neglecting to manipulte to its full advantage as we are pretty new to this game. But it sure does appear dicey for the Axis to survive to 1943.
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I am not trying to denigrate you or your play at all. I just saying that sometimes you can miss something that may allow for a different play out.
I know that that has happen to me many a time. All it takes is for some one new to show up, do something totally different, and you end up slapping your forehead with great gusto! One of those "How did I miss that!" moments.
Or maybe we all are missing something and it would be us that ends up slapping our foreheads! Actually, I would turn around and slap Mark's forehead. He is the designer after all! :P ;D ;)
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I wasn't being defensive, I understand and agree. Was just trying to convey that we're pretty good at wargames.
Been through the rules looking to see what we might have missed. One could say that Germany may be spending too many resources towards Barbarossa. But much less commitment and barbarossa doesn't hardly get off the ground. I think fewer inf and more aircraft are required in my purchases, however.
I've read where it has been said that its a risk for the UK to defend France with too much gusto. I don't see it. Where are the reprocutions? London could not be safer.
maybe we just need to bid for the axis then peel things back if the Axis play gets better.
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Perhaps your plan of bidding for your next game or two is a good one.
As the Germans, are you building all-out to kill France for the first two turns? I would max fighter builds if you are not. Are you hitting Belgium in the Winter turn? Sometimes the Italians can pitch in by blocking the British fleet with a destroyer or something and hit France from the South. I have also seen the Germans rail units into Northern Italy to help a Southern Blitzkrieg of France in some games. I'm sure you guys have tried all of this, but just some ways I have seen the Axis knock out France quickly.
For the Japanese, I think it is key to go all out against the Chinese early and bomb their production while you are at it. The Japanese have plenty of planes to really pound the Chinese before they flip their air over to the Pacific.
Interested in hearing how the bidding goes - please keep us in the loop.
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In my decades of playing several versions of A&A, I think that a 2 player game really has a tendency to favor the Allies. Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin did not agree on everything. I've always noticed a little more success for the Axis in a 5 player game. If "One of these kids is doing his own thing", for the Axis it's no big whoop, but I've seen (and participated!) in a lot of Allied Grand Strategic Arguments. Which is probably a helluva lot closer to actual history.
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Yes, Gemany is going into Belgium in the winter. Huge army there and placements int the Saar to put a lot of heat on the Maginot. The allies elect to defend it and the Germans best option is to attack it, and without air superiority as The UK gets alot of air power to Paris on the winter turn. It can be bloody which really hurts. The first 7 hits just get soaked up by the forts and the allied army withdraws to Paris as soon as its no longet in their best interest to stay.
I am thinking the bid will probably be a Factory on Japan's card, maybe line 2. Add a sub and a couple aircraft to germany's 1 box. Then they are ready for the winter turn. See where that gets us. I just want to see the axis get to a point where 28VP's by 1942 is a given. Not 50/50. Every game should make it to 1942 and beyond.
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How do the Allies get air superiority so fast? If the British start their planes in the Autumn turn, then they get placed in the UK in Winter. If the Germans max build fighters in Autumn, and place them in Winter then they can be used in Spring while the British planes are still out of range. Why do the Germans go direct after the Maginot line and not through Northern France to Paris? Or Calais and then on to Brittany in order to force a roll? Sorry, I know you guys are good players, just want to understand the dynamics that have made the invasion of France such a tough nut to crack in your games. What are the first two rounds of builds that the Allies and the Axis typically produce?
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Interesting. I don't recall ever seeing the Maginot line attacked in any game. I feel like we are missing something.
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If the Germans move into Northern France they must split their army to keep the Allies from attacking Belgium and cutting off the army that has advanced. With the UK sending maximum forces to France, a split German force can be vulnerable.
With Germany I had not been doing max ftr builds, and that may be a mistake. With the large Allied army in France and the need for numbers later in Barbarossa I had always felt it was more important to try to max build infantry. I will certainly amend that from here forward. I am not sure if a max ftr build is ideal though, as the allies can add as many inf per turn to France as the Germans are building. And if the Allies are using air transport, two inf can get right to Paris without a stop over in Normandy or Calais.
The attack on the Maginot is not a direct attact from the Saar only. The majority comes down from Belgium. The Germans have the option of splitting their army, moving into Calais, and keepeng forces in Belgium to prevent being cut off. The allied player leaves the maginot light, but strong enough to inflict some serious casualties and pull back.
The Allies don't need to win any battle. Just inflict casualties. French units are taken off first, especially when it comes to aircraft.
Anyways, I have been able to unlock the french defense. I've actually been lucky with capitualtion rolls every time. A lot of this input is based on a "what if I hadn't been so fortunate" point of view. The 28VP's have been contested every game. Its been very close. Had I not recieved the capitulation rolls I would most likely have been beaten.
This has led to a problem for my play partner. He claims the Allies should win every time with competent play and has lost interest. I have had a hard time proving otherwise.
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I would go with the bid process you suggested so that you both feel the game is more balanced. I would hate for you to keep pounding your heads in a wall and lose interest.
Someday I hope to play you guys at Origins or somewhere -
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Yes - I agree - go with what you think is more balanced- it is hard to give input without seeing more of what is happening. One thing with playing the Axis over a full game is the adjustment that eventually takes place of going from the offensive to the defensive - the Axis player needs to read the game ahead of time and begin making the adjustments a couple turns in advance.
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We could really take care of this if you guys would just show up here in Detroit again.
I am right in the middle. You from Boston and m7574 from Cedar Rapids. I should have the bathroom in the basement working by St. Patty's day (we host a big party) and there is plenty of sleeping space available down there too.
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That's interesting. Well right now we are very close to committing to Origins! We are trying to work out solid logistics as we may have a sizable group coming from New England and Mark is working on flying in from Asia...
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That's great! It will be interesting to see what kind of turn out they end up with on the new (earlier) date.
If you are going then I will give it a look as to what may be possible for my (or the other guys) attending.
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what is the date for origins? and the location? I am interested, but my schedule is going to get pretty tight soon. I have my boys every other weekend and my softball season (weekend tourneys) starts in april. Yep, I am a nerd and a meathead 8)
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Origins Game Fair
May 30-June 3, 2012
Greater Columbus Convention Center
Columbus, Ohio, 43215, USA
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Ok - Mark registered the game so we are going to Origins!
We'll be bringing and teaching the Advanced Game. It will be an ongoing game starting in 1939 so folks can come and go as they please. I'll bring some extra maps and disks with everything needed to play (charts, etc) so they can be bought on site! Really looking forward to this!
We hope to see everyone there!