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WWII: Struggle for Europe____WWII: Struggle for Asia => RULES (UPDATED APRIL 2018) => Topic started by: Mark on September 18, 2009, 09:08:43 PM
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Current Draft of the German production point and builds table
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1942 infantry weaker than 1939?
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Yeah - German infantry divison organization generally got weaker as the war wore on (while panzer divisions probably increased in combat power). Starting in 1942 - but certainly by 1943, regular German infantry divisions were reorganized from 9 infantry battalions to 6 (not to mention having less seasoned troops and training). Additionally there began a lot of lesser trained formations - like Luftwaffe field divisions - and later - Volksgrenadier divisions. All of this adds up to a weaker German infantry unit later in the war.
As a trade of - the Germans can produce more of these units - which they sorely need by 1942-43. Having the transition in 1942 works very well in the game, as the German player usually replaces his qaulity 3-4 divisions that are garrisoning places like France and the Balkans with 2-3 infantry divisions in order to send the 3-4't to combat armies. Also, it is a better deal to convert your 2-3's to fortificataion (fortress) units than converting the better 3-4 divisions to static units.
In most hex wargames I have played (like Europa - for example) - they model this degrading of German infantry divison combat power. Of course, the Germans still have their elite infantry divisions - like their Falschirmjager divisions, that defend on a 5. It makes these elite units even more valuable as the game moves on as they are much more capable than the late war German 2-3 divisions.
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Yeah - German infantry divison organization generally got weaker as the war wore on (while panzer divisions probably increased in combat power). Starting in 1942 - but certainly by 1943, regular German infantry divisions were reorganized from 9 infantry battalions to 6 (not to mention having less seasoned troops and training). Additionally there began a lot of lesser trained formations - like Luftwaffe field divisions - and later - Volksgrenadier divisions. All of this adds up to a weaker German infantry unit later in the war.
As a trade of - the Germans can produce more of these units - which they sorely need by 1942-43. Having the transition in 1942 works very well in the game, as the German player usually replaces his qaulity 3-4 divisions that are garrisoning places like France and the Balkans with 2-3 infantry divisions in order to send the 3-4't to combat armies. Also, it is a better deal to convert your 2-3's to fortificataion (fortress) units than converting the better 3-4 divisions to static units.
In most hex wargames I have played (like Europa - for example) - they model this degrading of German infantry divison combat power. Of course, the Germans still have their elite infantry divisions - like their Falschirmjager divisions, that defend on a 5. It makes these elite units even more valuable as the game moves on as they are much more capable than the late war German 2-3 divisions.
My suggestion - maybe as an optional rule - would be that rather than make it a hard and fast date is to say that the German player can build the 3-4 units as long as he wants, but at whatever point he begins to build 2-3 the decision is irreversible - from that turn forward he can only build 2-3's.
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Yeah - thought about and played around with that too - and maybe we should go back to a "total war" decision for the Germans. We currently have the same thing for the Japanese by the way - with infantry as well as their fighters. At some point, up to the Japanese player's decision, they can switch from building a few quality units to more poor units. Here is a copy of the japanese build sheet.
This is exactly what we plan to do with Japanese aircraft in the rules we're working on. Japan will be able to build limited numbers of elite naval aircraft (carrier fighters, naval bombers, dive bombers, and torpedo bombers). This represents the significantly higher number of flying hours that Japanese naval pilots had when they graduated Eta Jima as compared to other nations - but at the cost of producing only small numbers of them. Japan will be able to switch over to normal builds at any time - but will not be able to build any more elite units the rest of the game.
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career military rather than conscripts... - I would guess
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OK - so "Elite Infantry" is not a good name I suppose. . . So Perhaps, I should maybe call them early war infantry and late war - or veteran and poor or something (please give me your suggestion). . .
But, Japanese infrantry did decline in quality over the course of the war. By 1942, the Japanese started swapping out good formations in Manchuria and China with poor troops in order to get their best units out into the Pacific. By the time the Soviets invaded Manchuria, the Japanese army there was a shadow of what it was in 1939 in quality.
Bacically, the game has 2 types of infantry 2-3 units and 3-4 infantry units. French, Italian, Soviet and most minors are represented by 2-3 infantry. British, U.S. infantry formations are 3-4 for the most case. German and Japanese infantry declined in quality over the course of the war - and each nation id faced with a choice - to continue producing high quality formations in smaller numbers, or to switch to less quality infantry units but be able to produce them in greater numbers. I think this accurately reflects the course of the war - and I like to make it a decision on the part of the Japanese and Germans players when they want to make the switch.
Does this make sense?
cheers,
Mark
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For me at the beginning of the war only Japan and Germany got 3-4 infantry the rest 2-3 infantry.
Its a great idea to bring up the less quality of the German and Japan infantry at a point of the war but the allies have a opposite face of this fact. In my opinion Russia infantry 1939-1942=2-3 infantry 1943-1945=3-4 infantry. Germany 1939-1942=3-4 infantry 1943-1945=2-3 infantry
Usa 1939-1942=2-3 infantry 1943-1945=3-4 infantry and Japan 1939-1943=3-4 infantry 1944-1945=2-3 infantry. This is my systeme in my version. I dont know in your version march whit this rule.
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OK - so "Elite Infantry" is not a good name I suppose. . . So Perhaps, I should maybe call them early war infantry and late war - or veteran and poor or something (please give me your suggestion). . .
But, Japanese infrantry did decline in quality over the course of the war. By 1942, the Japanese started swapping out good formations in Manchuria and China with poor troops in order to get their best units out into the Pacific. By the time the Soviets invaded Manchuria, the Japanese army there was a shadow of what it was in 1939 in quality.
Bacically, the game has 2 types of infantry 2-3 units and 3-4 infantry units. French, Italian, Soviet and most minors are represented by 2-3 infantry. British, U.S. infantry formations are 3-4 for the most case. German and Japanese infantry declined in quality over the course of the war - and each nation id faced with a choice - to continue producing high quality formations in smaller numbers, or to switch to less quality infantry units but be able to produce them in greater numbers. I think this accurately reflects the course of the war - and I like to make it a decision on the part of the Japanese and Germans players when they want to make the switch.
Does this make sense?
cheers,
Mark
I agree with most of what you say here. The only exceptions are:
1) I think the Soviets ought to be able to build at least some 3-4 infantry. This would represent guards units that were of fairly high quality.
2) The Italians did have a few high-quality units. Perhaps allow them to build a couple of 3-4 units over the course of the game.
Interestingly, we were talking about having varying types of infantry the week before this discussion started as part of our reworking of the rules. Something we talked about was letting units gain "veteran" status. No specifics yet since Jason is out for extended training with his reserves unit, but the idea we kicked around was that in every battle you would roll for each infantry unit that survives - on, say, a roll of "12" on two dice the unit would be promoted to "veteran" and get a -1 to their die roll on both offense and defense.
I wish that we could all get together of a day or two with the game in a conference room and brainstorm ideas. There's no telling what we might be able to come up with if we were all able to bounce ideas off of each other.
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Will the other powers also be posted? How is the progress in playtesting with the advanced game?
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Thank you! I'm really wondering about how the progress is on this new game? Will it be finished soon? Just curious.. :)
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So - the map is pretty much done - we have not made too many changes to it in a while.
There are a few things we are still testing out - for example, the latest is to have 2 mech moves during Summer turns in non-desert, mountain, forest terrain.
Another item that is still being played with is North Africa supply - we have kicked around a few different ideas - but have settled back pretty much where we started - which is the standard supply rules - (i.e. you can supply the number of units that you have port points to trace supply through). In North Africa, the British can interdict the port points by attacking the Italian convoy box off of Malta.
A third item still under discussion is whether we should add British Homeguard, Soviet Militia, and German Volksturm units to the game to provide those nations some qucik cheap infantry for a one time build after the Fall of France (for Brits) after Barbarossa (for Russia) and from 1944 on for Germany.
But, really most of these types of things are just tweaks - and people are going to tweak the game the way they want anyway - so maybe we will just add them as ideas for optional rules.
I would really like to bring the game to Origins or GenCon this year - but we will see - everyone's schedules are still up in the air
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I think I like early war and late war Japanese infantry or regular and conscript or something. . .The imperial guard would really only be a couple units (or one) while what we are trying to reflect is the degrading of Japanese infantry units over the course of the war.
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(Veteran infantry) before you change for the (regular infantry).
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I would really like to bring the game to Origins or GenCon this year - but we will see - everyone's schedules are still up in the air
I wasn't planning on going to Origins this year, but if you are going to be there with the new game then I would give it a serious looking into. :o ;D
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So maybe Veteran and conscript for the two Japanese infantry classes? Would that work ok?
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If I can get 3-4 folks from the New England group to go - then I would definately like to go to Origins. I am planning on being home for a week-10 days in June and I have already tentatively got the ok from the wife to go play for a couple days somewhere ;D
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Veteran and conscript its great ;D
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So maybe Veteran and conscript for the two Japanese infantry classes? Would that work ok?
But would it be like you were talking about before for powers like Germany that once you chose to go with the regular/conscript unit that you can't build anymore of the veteran/elite units?
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Yes, like Germany, Japan can go on producing fewer high quality infantry and fighter units if they wish, but they have the choice to switch over to producing a larger number of lower quality fighter units and infantry later in the game.
As we have playtested it, Germany and Japan are usually so strapped for more infantry by 1942 that they usually switch over as soon as they can.
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Well Dave S. and I will be at Gencon.
Not sure which is better for you guys though.
Sean
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Where are you guys at with the Pacific half of the advanced game?
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Well Dave S. and I will be at Gencon.
Not sure which is better for you guys though.
Sean
I was at GCI last year for my second taste of it (having been there briefly back a few years ago) and I am not a fan at all.
Just didn't like it. Indy is a nice place and convenient for me to get to (if you call a 5+ hour drive convenient), but the actual con just doesn't turn my crank. I may just be hampered in my feel in coming off of a long convention, usually right before, that I really like (WBC).
As screwed up as Origins usually is, I still like it better than GCI. It may be that it is just the first convention that one gets to after a long winter lay off. Or I just like the fact that we play Struggle up in the War Room area, away from the majority of the craziness. 8)
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Asia Pacific is pretty much done. - Very different feel - very fun
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Well Dave S. and I will be at Gencon.
Not sure which is better for you guys though.
Sean
I was at GCI last year for my second taste of it (having been there briefly back a few years ago) and I am not a fan at all.
Just didn't like it. Indy is a nice place and convenient for me to get to (if you call a 5+ hour drive convenient), but the actual con just doesn't turn my crank. I may just be hampered in my feel in coming off of a long convention, usually right before, that I really like (WBC).
As screwed up as Origins usually is, I still like it better than GCI. It may be that it is just the first convention that one gets to after a long winter lay off. Or I just like the fact that we play Struggle up in the War Room area, away from the majority of the craziness. 8)
Well last year did feel down a little for me in just....fun.....but I still enjoyed it. I do agree with the separate space for the game would be great.
I also have not been to another convention so have nothing to compare it to except the one we have in Alaska (100 people).
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Asia Pacific is pretty much done. - Very different feel - very fun
Good to hear :) Can we see some pics of that also?
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There are some pics in the after action reports section - for example, there are a few pics of the map, pieces and some leaders here:
http://www.ww2wargame.com/forum/index.php?topic=274.0
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When will the game be available to buy ? : -)
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Good question - we are still playtesting things - maybe by the end of the year... We plan on bringing it to cons to get feedback...
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They were on the first page of this thread but seemed to have been removed.
Maybe they are doing some revisions to the information based on playtesting?
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Yeah - there are alot of little revisions more for flavor than anything else.. 8)
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OK - so I believe this is the Final country build card for Germany for the Advanced Struggle for Europe game - the other country cards will be similar
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Some news for the release of this fantastic game?? the end of the years or before, after. thanks
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Planning on being able to distribute a softcopy of the game on a disc by Christmas-time. Will that work?
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toooo late !!! :-) *throwing in some pressure from the east*
Has is to be a disc or will downloadable file / Iso also work?
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Is fine for me. The map and all of the players aids, reference sheets and rules, generals and picture of the base of every units on the disc?
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Mark is working like a mad genius to finish - We are playtesting the Pacific game again this coming weekend - I will begin to document the game!
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John - once you get through Super Megafest, let's finalize everything for the Europe game - I think all the pieces are in place.
I think we will distribute everything (counters, battleboards, production cards, map, rules, etc.) soft copy initially - and we'll see how it goes. Also that way, any suggestions you guys might have can be incorporated and distributed easily.
Mark
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Sounds like a plan!!! :)
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Just an idea the map on the disc and the other tings ready for plays, players aid, unit base, rules and combat sheet, ship to the buyer.
But all things on the disc, for future reprint.
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I prefer downloadable files to prevent useless taxes
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I have everything in zip files ready to go except for the map and am travelling back to the US the weekend after next. Will be doing a final playtest in Connecticut the weekend of December 18th - barring any massive calamities, John and I should be able to finalize everything that weekend and be able to get copies out to folks who would like one.
Thanks for all of the support!
Mark
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Will a hard copy of the map be available?
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Hi Norseman - we were not necessarily going to go down that path for this version due to the printing costs - but if there is demand and you would like one - we can figure out how much a small run of maps would cost. Let me know.
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Printing large maps like this is a big expense- either way you go, be it you guys or us doing it.
If you were able to get a certain print run for a lesser amount that makes it viable economically for all, even with shipping, then it would make sense for you to do so that the quality can be controlled.
I still can see having it on the disc for those who are overseas and for replacement purposes. Downloadable files would be a bit problematical though since you wouldn't be able to control its distribution and it would also be a damn big file to send to get a quality copy.
I would just put together a basic paper copy and just put it into frames or under plexiglass. A nice map would be a beautiful thing to have, but I can live without it if that means a large monetary investment.
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If you guys get the printing done I know that the quality will be really good. Not having much experience with printers myself, I'm not sure how the map would turn out if I had it done here. Even if it cost more for you guys to send out hard copies, I might prefer that depending on how much more it cost vs. doing it myself.
Can you give an estimate for how much it would cost?
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Yes - I will be doing this soon....
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This is the final countdown... ;D
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22 December any news?? ???
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VERY CLOSE!!!! :)
We are ironing out a few map details - we have expanded Africa!
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Can't wait !! : -)
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Happy new years (and y can't wait)...
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Any news :-\ ??? please a good news! exemple a final date for the release. Thanks a lot for the big job
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Yes! - We ironed out pretty much everything for Europe. I need to make a few map changes and redo the charts in hi resolution. I will be getting printing costs for the map. Sorry for the delay - We want to get it right the first time (as much as possible) :)
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For me the download version is fine
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for me aswell
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OK - I have a few small adjustments. I have quotes coming on the maps as well!
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Are the map quotes for both europe and pacific?
kenb
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We will just be doing Europe first - I think we would like to do some more playtesting on Pacific.
I've sent the updated rules and charts to John that addressed a few inconsistencies we noticed during the last game. I believe he is now in the process of bundling that up to be able to get out to folks on a disk. He is also going forward on some roll-up map printing (6'x4') similar to the way the map was printed for the first game.
If folks get the game on disk, they'll be discounted on the map if they want to pick it up once the printing is complete.
John also wants to re-do some of the charts and counters better in photo-shop - so once done, we'll get those out to anyone who first got the game on a disk and wants to upgrade to nicer charts at a later point - but I don't think we want to delay getting things out so you can check it out, play a couple game and get feedback that can be built into the game and constantly improve it for all of us.
Look for an update from John soon.
cheers,
Mark