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WWII: Struggle for Europe____WWII: Struggle for Asia => Introduction => Topic started by: Mark on November 09, 2007, 01:13:37 PM
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Some key combat ideas that I am toying with include the idea of limited front line units. One thing I do not like about the standard A&A system is the advantage of massive stacks that cause massive casualties – unlike simulations in strategic hex-based games that limit stacking limits.
I have been thinking for a while now on a better way to do a strategic simulation of WW2 battles in an area game. One solution was to limit the number of “front-line” units allowed to participate in a round of combat. Remaining units in the territory are “in-reserve”. Casualties inflicted by each side must be taken off of front line units and only front line units get to fire in a given round.
This added some interesting thinking for a battle: Do I commit my stronger units in order to inflict more casualties – but then have to take my casualties off of my more expensive units? Is it better to have a mix of string and weak front line units in order to inflict and accept a more optimum mix of casualties?
The other advantage this combat system allowed was for “forced retreats” i.e. if all of your front line units get wiped out in a given round – you have to retreat.
This system also opened up other interesting ideas – like: how do units move from reserve to front line status every combat round? Answering that question helped me implement another idea that I have wanted to do for a while: add leaders to the game.
Good leaders would be able to move more units from reserve status to front line status every combat round. Poorer leaders would be able to move reserves and reinforce a battle less effectively.
So – this is one of the game ideas we have been playtesting (among others and lots of good suggestions folks have contributed over the last several years).
I’ll share some pics of playtesting shortly
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Yeah :) another cool feature i missed somehow.
Nice Mark
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Picture from a recent playtest:
Note another innovation - we mounted the miniatures on bases that we printed out their combat value and unit type symbols on.
You can see a mock up of leaders with various leadership command values as well.
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O.O WoW what a Map!!!
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Yeah - this is fun also! 8)
John
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That map looks REALLY good. I'll have to try and make it to Gen Con next summer so I can see it up close.
BTW - what are your criteria for becoming a playtester? Myself and two friends (and maybe as many as three more) are now pretty much playing the game at least one night a week (every Wed. night and sometimes Tues or Thurs as well). With us meeting so regularly, we might be able to get in enough play to properly test out new concepts, whether for the current game or this new monster.
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Or you could just pester Mark and John with ideas and comments until they crumble under the weight of your onslaught! ;)
Just like Mark crumbled under the crushing might of Dan's Russian hordes or John did under the overwhelming might of Eric's American military. ;D
Aaaahhhh, the memories of riding my allies coattails to victory are so sweet! 8)
http://www.ww2wargame.com/forum/index.php?topic=212.msg2214#msg2214
Craig
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C'mon. You must have been impressed that I was using empty carriers as a blockade to stall the inevitable advance of the US navy and the eventual occupation of Japan. Does it get anymore desperate than that?
I think not.
Then again - I wasn't really paying attention to what was going on with Mark's Germany...
:o
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.....Then again - I wasn't really paying attention to what was going on with Mark's Germany...
:o
That sounds like a good defense mechanism when being Mark's partner! ;)
Craig
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I see we are talking trash already. . . it is like 6 months until Origins!
Just because I took it easy on you guys our first few games. . . . ;D
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Actually - what I meant by that statement was that I was not sure if things were MORE desperate on the European side!
But I could use it as a defense mechanism as well.. ;)
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Yes the new map of what I can see looks pretty sharp.
Sean
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Can you give us more pictures of this new map Mark ? ;)
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Will get some posted this weekend - we are having a go at it this Saturday and I will be sure to bring my digital camera!
Mark
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I couldn't help but notice that the pics didn't make it to the web site.
--NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT! ;D
I was just wondering if you (Mark or John) could just share/tell us what the new map involves and what makes it different. Do you mind? :'(
Thanks. 8)
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Well, we had a goode play test on Saturday - which ended in a decisive Axis victory. And since I was allies, it must have been a games mechanics problem instead of a player strategy issue which led to the Allied defeat. . . ;D
Here are a couple pics - more to come when I get some time...let me know what questions you got on these pice - some different kinds of things. . .
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Thanks for the pics. 8)
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I love this new concept but ( is just a opinion) the officer is little bit to big. The rest is ultra crazy my game of the struggle for europe and asia first edition is fade compared whit this picture.
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The map looks really, really good – with the more realistic terrain depictions it has a look that’s closer to some of the better maps I’ve seen in paper & counter wargames. I really like the idea of gluing the miniatures onto counter stock that has the national flag to differentiate ownership as well as the combat values. This really adds a lot to the visual attractiveness of the game.
Looking at the units it’s obvious that this is based on a D-10 or D-12 – which is it? Either way, I think this is a good idea; it allows for a little more separation in combat values between different units.
Introducing leader units into the game is a great idea, in my opinion. One of the things I liked about World in Flames was the HQ units and the various ways they impacted the game. Going a step further, I liked the leaders in Victory Games’ “Civil War”, where individual leaders could have a significant impact on combat – sometimes in the wrong way if you were forced to use McClellan, McDowell, etc. It looks like from the photos that the leaders have unique stats – is that related to how many units they can command & control in a battle? If so, this is again a great idea. I’m guessing this is indeed they case, and that this is related to an earlier posting where you alluded to the fact that there would be a maximum number of units that could be in the front line and participate in a battle per round (the rest would be in reserve or considered to be “on their way” to the front. I think this could add a whole new dimension to the game. As things are now, you can make an attack with overwhelming numbers and be pretty sure you will succeed. In real life, though, overwhelming numbers won’t necessarily carry the day if you can’t get them deployed efficiently. Limiting the front line could mean that a large force that would overwhelm the defenders in the current game could bounce off of a moderately defended force, which could represent a force that, though outnumbered, is fully prepared, uses better small unit tactics, etc. This is one change I really look forward to.
Based on the number of units on the map and the turn indicates that you’re in still in 1940 it’s obvious that in addition to having more territories you also have larger force pools. More units = more fun (at least, to me).
One question I have – what are the measurements of the map? With more territories and with each territory seeming to be larger than the current game I’m assuming the map will be considerably larger.
Seeing the map made me realize something I missed before – this game only covers Europe, right? If that’s the case, are there plans at some point to also have an Asian theatre game that would link to this game? If so, are you working on the rules, production, etc. for the Asian game while you’re developing this game? My thought is that merging two games together into one supergame is easier to accomplish if at least the groundwork for the 2nd game is done before finalizing the first game. Otherwise, you’re faced with the possibility of all kinds of adjustments and errata for the first game when the second one comes out. Of course, with two giant maps the question of where you’re going to lay them out to play does become an issue. I’m not sure I’d be able to convince my wife that I need a second ping-pong table so that I can play with my “little toys.”
I’m not sure what my commitment would be to buy a game that only covers one theatre of the war. Typically I’ve looked at most games that cover half of the war as being “half of a game.” I do like what I’ve seen here though.
One question – has any thought been given to publishing a rule set to convert the existing game to the same D-10 or D-12 system as this proposed game? If both games had units with the same factors the units would then be interchangeable. Just glue the stuff you already own to the counters, and then you could use them with whichever game you want. Otherwise, I would probably have to pass on this advanced game. There’s no way I could ever hope to justify a second expenditure like the first game to my wife; if I could use the miniatures I already have I might be able to swing the price of the map, counters, and other paper stuff.
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The WW2 Canadien flags is (www.mrflag.com) canadien flag of 1921-1957.
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Hi Bob,
This is a D12 game. Leaders have proven to be a lot of fun. Some influence reserve to front line movement, other influence combat rolls and some a bit of both.
The Pacific Theatre Map is almost complete. We need to iron out the bugs on this before that comes into play.
Both games, I believe, can use either rules set and miniatures.
We will keep progress posted.
John
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The WW2 Canadien flags is (www.mrflag.com) canadien flag of 1921-1957.
Learn something new every day!
Thanks!
John
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Mark- I see (on the map) that you took my advice about making the name of the territory stand out from the other city names in said territory.
It will help cut down on the confusion when trying to find the right territory.
Craig
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What is the size of the new map? and you introduce new units?
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Hi all,
I questioned which Canadian flag to use - but went with familiarity instead of historical accuracy. I think I regret that decision now though - and will probably go back to the historical flag.
Yoper - used lots of ideas that a lot of people had. . .and I guess you did have one good idea. . . ;D
The European theater map is currently 4x6 feet. I have roughly the smam size map sketched out for the Pacific theater. It is still very much in the development phase - lots of things to be worked out and suggestions incorporated. I'll try and share some of the concepts being tested shortly - but nothing is etched in stone. . .
Thanks!
Mark
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On the unit side - pretty much all of the units stay intact. with the option of adding a few more unit types.
The great thing about the plastic bases is it allows you to use existing miniatures in different ways. Example: You can mount the Tiger tank miniature on a black & white SS panzer base to make an SS panzer unit that has maybe an 8-8 value and mount another tank on a grey & black base to make a 6-5 regular panzer unit.
Also: All of those plastic bases have Silhouettes of the units printed on the middle of them - so if you don't have a miniature yet for the base - you can use it as a stand-alone piece until you do.
So, some of the 'new' units that we are play testing around with are some differences in fighters (Me109s, Me110s and later FW190s) , with the British having Hurricanes, spitfires, and later typhoons. Having bases with different values and names on them allows us to have a lot more flexibility here than just trying to differentiate with a miniature.
also messing around with SS and guards armor and different infantry. But, this does not really require additional miniatures - as the base is the real difference. For example, you can glue a German infantry unit on a 3-4 base for a regular 39 German infantry unit or paste him on a 2-3 base for a late war German infantry unit. Or, paste a Russian on a brown 2-3 base for a Russian unit or on a red 3-4 base for a guards unit, etc.
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What is the new terrain type?
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What is the new terrain type?
It looks like they have split the Mountain terrain into two parts- Hills and Mountains.
Craig
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So - currently for this map, we have Mountainous, Forested, Wooded and Rough. Mountains and forests are similar in effects to the d6 game. Woods and rough provide a slight defensive advantage.
Mark
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Your new map is already on my buying list Mark :) Keep up the good work.
By the way.
We played again last month, and i made many pictures.. will post them next week.
You had a chance to play Hearts of Iron yet ? ,)
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Great Darkman- Let's see some pictures! 8)
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The big map is ready for europe and asia?
what is the price for the map only?
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Were still playtesting the big maps of Europe and Asia and finding territory and sea zone boundaries that may need to be changed. It may be a while yet - certainly not until after Origins at the earliest. We have not even discussed yet when we might run a printing of it. One thing is for sure - we won't sell it with the miniatures, the miniatures for the d6 game are the same - or folks can get the minis themselves.
We are still having debates about the alternating movement systems and the combat system that we are currently using - changes to them may mean potential changes to the map too.
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i have the first full version of your game with miniatures and i am not interest by buying another 1000$ for the futur new version. I am not interest by your new rules just your new map i built my home game and i need a good map and your new map is super.
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Yup - no worries - no more $1,000 games. . . Frankly the labor to put all those miniatures together is not worth it. . . maybe when I retire someday. . . ;)
One we have most of the bugs worked out of the map - I'll let you know.
Mark
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no prob!
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i would love to see more and more pictures of the whole map
Do not tease us so much Mark ! ;)
By the way.
All the counters look sweet but the onés you used for the old counters, were easy to scratch. (Flags , Markers and so on)
Don't you have the same problem with it ?
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Yes - We make the the same way - The high gloss looks better but scratches easier. I have not figured out any other reasonable way. Let me know if you have any ideas.
John
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Somethng I used to do with my paper map & counter wargames was to spray the counters with clear laquer. The laquer would soak into the cardboard and make the counters almost the consistency of plastic. This really helps protect the color of the counters from fading or wearing off due to heavy use; I assume it would also protect the markers in this game from getting scratched up.
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Please find attached a picture of the Ground battle board. Very different that your traditional A&A battleboard. . .
There are limited front line units and support units - everything else is in reserve. This is why good leaders are important to move troops out of reserve and into the front line at the end of every combat round.
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