Declare war on Denmark / Norway

[Darkman]

Hey maybe I've overseen this always but reading the rulebook again i noticed that.

Q1) What the fixed setup for norway since petsamo is now no longer a valid territory?

Q2: Is it right that i can't move through the danish straight with my invasion fleet to norway ( (lets say on spring 1940) because on any chit draw i declare war on norway, i also instantly declare war on denmark. 

And the rule for the straight says that you can't move through if you don't own the straight beginning of the movement Phase or when denmark is neutral.
So in order to invade norway at all (except paratroopers) i HAVE to set up the invasion fleet into the Wilhelmshaven port? (Lets say on winter 39/40) or have to invade denmark on the turn earlier ?.

If this is true  i would suggest that the germans declare war when they "invade \ raid a country" as i don't think that ANY declaration of war arrived BEFORE the invasion on any country.. rather than having to declare war on a chit draw.

I also would like to talk about if we could increase the movement range of transports when doing amphibious invasions. Maybe from "2" to "3" as the invasion of norway was reaching Narvik with fleets (& transports) (since its all one territory , this is minor)

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsNorway.htm

[Mark]

Hi Darkman! 

For the Danish straights, the rules state:

•   Danish Straights:  Denmark.  In order for any naval unit to move through the Danish straights, Denmark must either be a neutral territory or controlled by the side wishing to move through the straights at the beginning of the movement phase. Submarines may attempt to ‘run the straight, see 7.6.3, below.

So - German (and British) naval units are free to move through the Danish straights while Denmark is neutral.

The Norwegian set-up is 1 infantry unit in Oslo and one in Bergen.  This should be on the back of the set-up charts.  If you do not have access to the drop-box, let me know and I will send them to you direct.

The Germans could declare war on both Denmark and Norway on the '0' all move chit draw, for example, and move from the Baltic to invade both Norway and Denmark on the same chit if they desired.

Alternatively, I usually set up my German fleet in Wilhelmshaven and invade the Narvik space as then I do not need to expend a transport and can land additional troops on the non-combat movement phase.

I too have struggled with some of the things that were done in history that you can't quite pull off with the game mechanics.  The invasion of Narvik being one of them.  This is minor, as you point out, because the Germans can still invade the Narvik territory, just not from the Narvik port sea zone.

Giving transports a range of 3 or more for amphibs creates a lot of challenges. . .we used to do this. They became even more difficult to defend and, in reality, most were conducted over pretty short ranges.

One thing I have thought about is perhaps allowing destroyers to carry one infantry unit and being able to move tactically and land them in enemy owned territories (not enemy occupied, as that would require a landing craft) - but land them in enemy owned (or friendly) territories.  Perhaps let them only do this with mountain and para units (that had light equipement)  if you really wanted to restrict it).  This way, you could pull off a Narvik invasion with a destroyer unit. . .then the Brits could move on a later chit draw and sink it if you really wanted to get historic. . .

[Gargantua]

For the Danish straights, the rules state:

•   Danish Straights:  Denmark.  In order for any naval unit to move through the Danish straights, Denmark must either be a neutral territory or controlled by the side wishing to move through the straights at the beginning of the movement phase. Submarines may attempt to ‘run the straight, see 7.6.3, below.

So - German (and British) naval units are free to move through the Danish straights while Denmark

The Germans could declare war on both Denmark and Norway on the '0' all move chit draw, for example, and move from the Baltic to invade both Norway and Denmark on the same chit if they desired

Apologies... But these statements are in total contradiction, and leave me with the same question as the original poster...

Unless you are saying that Norway and Denmark are neutral whilst at the same time being invaded and at war with Germany...

[Darkman]

Hey!

Thanks for reply

•   Danish Straights:  Denmark.  In order for any naval unit to move through the Danish straights, Denmark must either be a neutral territory or controlled by the side wishing to move through the straights at the beginning of the movement phase. Submarines may attempt to ‘run the straight, see 7.6.3, below.

I think Mark wants to point out that IF they are neutral at the beginning of the movement phase.. so you can move through the straight and invade norway. At least i read that out of his answer.

One thing I have thought about is perhaps allowing destroyers to carry one infantry unit and being able to move tactically and land them in enemy owned territories (not enemy occupied, as that would require a landing craft) - but land them in enemy owned (or friendly) territories.  Perhaps let them only do this with mountain and para units (that had light equipement)  if you really wanted to restrict it).  This way, you could pull off a Narvik invasion with a destroyer unit. . .then the Brits could move on a later chit draw and sink it if you really wanted to get historic. . .

Pretty interesting Mark... i would say make a rule out it!
I remember an old rule (Dunno if it was in your 1st Edition or in Axis & Allies) that japenese destroyers were able to accompany 1 infantry unit but loose the attack ability when doing it.

So if we think about your rule. (Axis only or for everyone)
How about allowing destroyers to load a mountain and para unit with them while loosing their attack ability for this turn. (They act as transports and can only defend themselves) Maybe also a reduction of tactical movement by 1 or an increased Amphibious assault movement by 1 (so you can only move up to 3 spaces to prevent some new way to invade the USA   )

16.0.3 Note: if landing on an enemy controlled shore containing no enemy front-line units, the attacker still needs to have at least one front line unit in order to land (can be either landed via landing craft or a paratrooper), but there is no battle.

According to this rule you always need a landing craft if not moving from friendly to friendly territory
So the destroyers would need another special rule or have to take a landing craft with them.

[Mark]

So - I did not quite understand the disconnect here, but I re-read the posts and the rules on declaring war and I think I understand the root of the problem now.  It is interesting how this never came up in the past, but I guess it only comes up with respect to the Danish straights. 

I will re-word the declaration of war rules to clarify.

The declaration of war rule should be written and interpreted as:  A country declares war on another country when it attacks a territory or units belonging to that neutral country - this can happen on any chit draw or during the mechanized movement phase.

The way we have always assumed / played it is that, in the Norway/Denmark example, Germany is not at war with Norway until a German unit lands in a Norwegian territory.  We never 'announce' a declaration of war when the chit is drawn - though I can see that misunderstanding reading the rules.

Germany does not declare war until his units attack Norway (or Denmark).  Once attacked, Norway and Denmark join the Allies and are at war with Germany.  So, on the '0' chit draw, German transports could sail through the Danish straights and land in Oslo as Germany is not at war with Norway or Denmark until they attack the Norwegians. 

[Darkman]

The Norwegian set-up is 1 infantry unit in Oslo and one in Bergen.  This should be on the back of the set-up charts.  If you do not have access to the drop-box, let me know and I will send them to you direct.

Aww my fault.. I didn't look on the Commonwealth Chart. I still used an old Chart one for the setup sry

For the strategy i think the invasion of norway is always a gamble in this game.. maybe you can help.

My guess is:

You neeed to build at least 1 or 2 transports in the beginning and landing crafts.. you can paratroop a territory yes.. but you don't get any support (Bombers & Fighers) as your support value is zero for the first round when attacking with paratroopers only.

The territory is mountain and you really have to be lucky if you can take oslo & bergen in one step.
(since the second norway infantry is now at the front and not far away in finnmark)..

So if you don't build transports and landing crafts the norway campaign seems doomed..or you have a Long campaign.

Do i see that wrong?

[Mark]

Norway can be a bit tricky.

But, one landing craft on one transport landing in the Narvik space is the most economical.  You can follow it up with three more infantry on the NCM phase.

If you go on the last chit would be ideal.  You can drop ships or use planes to own the sea zones off of Bergen to prevent the British from landing troops on the NCM phase.

Alternatively, 1 landing craft landing infantry along with a paratrooper can usually take out Bergen.  So, if you really wanted to go after it hard, build another transport and a couple landing craft on the first 2 turns and take out both Bergen and Narvik right away.  The British are pretty unlikely to reinforce an isolated Oslo with German airpower dominance.

It has been rare for us to have a game where Norway did not fall to the Germans.

[Darkman]

I will re-word the declaration of war rules to clarify.

The declaration of war rule should be written and interpreted as:  A country declares war on another country when it attacks a territory or units belonging to that neutral country - this can happen on any chit draw or during the mechanized movement phase.

Hey Mark, i think you should be able to do declare war \ join the axis also by "just saying it" so italy can join the axis without having to attacking the allies actually. Or do i really have to suicide something ? :p?

[Mark]

Agree -we play this way - but, again it is not explicit in the rules

[John D.]

Good point. We have to make sure that in the event that Italy declare war and doesn't attack something - the rest of the world believes them