Complex sea battle (Mixed Forces)

[Darkman]

Like the other two but more complex...

British Chit Draw 0: The British Player is moving 2 Destroyer into a convoy zone. (tactical 4 spaces)
German Chit Draw 2: A german Battleship is moving into that North atlantic convoy zone. It wants to do strategic attack. (6 spaces)
British Chit Draw 1: The British Player is moving 2 battleships into that convoy zone. (tactical 4 spaces)
German Chit Draw 0: 2 german submarines are moving into that convoy zone. They want to do strategic attack. (6 spaces)

All chit draws are done..

Soo who decides what sort of battles we have here first?

If the British ships attack the german fleet, can any german ship do strategic damage at all or is it now a naval battle between 2 british destroyers and 2 british battleships against 1 german battleship + 2 german submarines?

[John D.]

Initiative winner needs to declare what they are doing - in this case a good option would be battleships and one destroyer in fleet battle and 1 destroyer on convoy patrol. German player then decides on battleship to engage navy or try for a strat attack and deal with free shots from the 2 Brit battleships and destroyer (not a good option IMO ) . The subs could opt to split - one in naval battle and one doing convoy attack (and having to deal with the 1 destroyer on patrol)

[Darkman]

Ok so in a Zone where two sort of battles take place you always have the Option to Not engage the enemy and have to deal with his free shots ? So an enemy can't force you completely into a regular Naval battle if you want to do strategic convoy attacks?

[John D.]

No - if two enemy navies BOTH moved tactically a battle automatically ensues. If one side moved strategically and the other moved tactically - the ships that moved tactically have the option to start a surface battle on any legal chit draw. If both sides moved 5 or 6 spaces and the enemy ships opt to conduct convoy attacks the defending ships can OPT to defend - or not if things look too tough and just let the ships do damage. If ships moved 7-8 spaces - they can not conduct any kind of attack and can only defend themselves if attacked directly (although destroyers that moved up to 8 spaces CAN defend convoy zones against sub convoy attacks)

[Darkman]

Ok.. i'm, sorry John this rule is really hard to understand if you go by the rulebook :-) Or i'm too stupid


Thanks for all the patient. I don't want that we play this wrong.. so here a summary.

1) If two enemy navies BOTH moved tactically a battle automatically ensues.  =  Regular Naval Battle Up to 4 Rounds of Combat
Q: So moving tactical doesn't allow you to attack convoys, even if no enemy is in sight or only doesn't allow it if both sides moved tactical into it?

2) If one side moved strategically and the other moved tactically - the ships that moved tactically have the option to start a surface battle on any legal chit draw.
Q: If the side that moved tactical a surface battle, has the other side the option to evade it so it can do strategic damage (with the risk of getting free fire shots)?

3) If both sides moved 5 or 6 spaces and the enemy ships opt to conduct convoy attacks the defending ships can OPT to defend
Q: Stupid question but , can't i move only  3 or 4 spaces and do strategic damage by calling it a strategic move ?

4) If ships moved 7-8 spaces - they can not conduct any kind of attack and can only defend themselves if attacked directly (although destroyers that moved up to 8 spaces CAN defend convoy zones against sub convoy attacks)
Q: So this is a destroyer only ability and Special rule, right?

5) Next question would be if some of the german side moved tactical and other strategic  , then a british fleet moves tactical to attack them.
  Q: What then? Does the british attack the whole fleet? The tactical & the strategic fleet?   

[John D.]

Great questions.

1) Tactical moves allow fleets the most options - initiate a surface battle or conduct port or convoy damage. Tactically moving players can designate what each ship is doing - some ships may fight a surface engagement while other ships conduct strategic attacks (especially good if you have numerical superiority). Usually what happens is there is a ship to ship numerical match up and any extra ships can either go to reserve OR conduct strategic damage for one round.
2) I say yes but Mark may disagree
3) Yes - You can move UP TO 6 spaces and conduct a strategic attack
4) Sure - technically destroyers (and air units for that matter) are considered to be DEFENDING convoys. ASW is considered defensive for game purposes
5) Yes - if all the axis ships got together before the Brit ships moved - ALL of the Axis ships may defend themselves together

Mark may add his comments eventually.

Keep the questions coming - this will help with clearing up the rule book 

[Darkman]

Ok ok fine.. will try

Next examples:

1)A american plane is moving into a sea zone where an german submarine is. The german submarine wants to raid but if the submarine moves out the plane can snap fire it?
Q1: When attacking the ship in a sea zone it will use the hunter-killer table, right?
Q2: If it attacks the submarine in an Harbor it will use it ship bombing value plus a -2 drm bonus, right?
Q3: If the the submarine moves out it can snap fire it will the hunter-killer attack, right?

2)A american plane is moving into a sea zone where an german submarine is. The german submarine wants to raid but before it moves out he moves a german fighter into that sea zone to attack the enemy plane.
Q1: Can the Submarine move out safety without getting snap fired?
Q2: Can the german fighter help the submarine in any way? (Engaging the U.S plane?)

[John D.]

You wrote


1)A american plane is moving into a sea zone where an german submarine is. The german submarine wants to raid but if the submarine moves out the plane can snap fire it?
Q1: When attacking the ship in a sea zone it will use the hunter-killer table, right?
Q2: If it attacks the submarine in an Harbor it will use it ship bombing value plus a -2 drm bonus, right?
Q3: If the the submarine moves out it can snap fire it will the hunter-killer attack, right?

1 - attack = HK table
2 - Yes - a sub in harbor is treated just like a surface ship (unless it is in a sub pen)
3 - Just to clarify - if it moves out of harbor - it is treated as surface ship for the snapfire (-2 DRM). If it moves out/through/into a sea zone the plane can snapfire on the HK table

[John D.]

2)A american plane is moving into a sea zone where an german submarine is. The german submarine wants to raid but before it moves out he moves a german fighter into that sea zone to attack the enemy plane.
Q1: Can the Submarine move out safety without getting snap fired?
Q2: Can the german fighter help the submarine in any way? (Engaging the U.S plane?)

The American plane can opt to snapfire (instead of engaging the German fighter) - this would allow the German fighter a free shot at the US fighter. Not a good option. The US plane is better off engaging the German plane, allowing the sub to move freely on a an axis chit draw.

[Darkman]

2)A american plane is moving into a sea zone where an german submarine is. The german submarine wants to raid but before it moves out he moves a german fighter into that sea zone to attack the enemy plane.
Q1: Can the Submarine move out safety without getting snap fired?
Q2: Can the german fighter help the submarine in any way? (Engaging the U.S plane?)

The American plane can opt to snapfire (instead of engaging the German fighter) - this would allow the German fighter a free shot at the US fighter. Not a good option. The US plane is better off engaging the German plane, allowing the sub to move freely on a an axis chit draw.

Thx. but that is also a rule the rulebook doesn't explain. 

1)So whenever you Snap fire you have no defense ability afterwards?
2) When does the german fighter get that free shot?  Combat Phase or instantly during the Snap fire attempt?
3) Does the german fighter still be able to start a battle in that zone after getting the free shot ?
4) Can planes snap fire enemy planes aswell?

[John D.]

Great questions -

The easiest way to break it down is
1) a unit being attacked can always defend itself.
2)Every unit gets ONE offensive action per regular phase.

Your questions
1) If you snapfire and you are subsequently attacked in the regular phase - you can defend yourself.
2) German fighter would get an immediate snapfire attempt for the free shot (if desired as there may be other reasons not to do this)
3)No - it's offensive turn is over as soon as it snapfires (this is why you may want to NOT snapfire - depending on the situation)
4)The simple answer is No - those are called airbase attacks - in which fighters pin other fighters on a one to one basis - this keeps the defending fighter from moving during subsequent chit draws. Airbase attacks are resolved during the regular phase. They are usually just one round but sometimes the dogfighting can go longer

[Darkman]

1) When a ships snapfires another ship it can't fire back.. can a ship that gets snapfired from a plane , use it's AA against it?

2) Just reread a PM from Mark some weeks ago about ships that moved 8 spaces: "The British destroyer that moved 8 can do nothing (unless the tactically moving u-boats decide to attack it."
   That stands against that i think "Sure - technically destroyers (and air units for that matter) are considered to be DEFENDING convoys. ASW is considered defensive for game purposes"

You have to fight that out ;-)

[John D.]

1) When a ships snapfires another ship it can't fire back.. can a ship that gets snapfired from a plane , use it's AA against it?

2) Just reread a PM from Mark some weeks ago about ships that moved 8 spaces: "The British destroyer that moved 8 can do nothing (unless the tactically moving u-boats decide to attack it."
   That stands against that i think "Sure - technically destroyers (and air units for that matter) are considered to be DEFENDING convoys. ASW is considered defensive for game purposes"

You have to fight that out ;-)

1)Yes - it get to use AA
2)Ok - he's right

[Darkman]

Q1 Can Reader use his attack value to reroll a strategic attack on convoy?


Ok i think i finally understood all aspects of the New Naval rules.

Example ( Tell me if it is correct )
A British plane is moving into a Sea Zone to snapfire ships.
Then the german player is moving also a plane into this sea zone
After doing that he is moving a german battleship through this sea zone.

Now the British plane can try to bomb(After battleship AA)
The german fighter can try to Intercept the British plane (free Shot)

- If the german plane decides not to help, it can snapfire enemy ships that try to move through this Zone. If that doesn't Happen it still can attack the British fighter in the combat phase , but then the British plane can shoot back (defend).

-  If the battleship that Moves out of that Sea Zone was Inside an harbor (in That Sea Zone ) then the enemy plane has a -2 DRM to his snapfire attempt.

All correct ? I really LOVE the new rules.. Just give every Nation supply ships and i'm happy ;-)

[John D.]

Q) - I don't see why not - I think yes!

It's all correct! The naval rules went through a huge overhaul. It makes the navies MUCH more active and fun to play - any very flexible. I do think replenishers would be fine for all nations... Again - not sure if Mark has some unspoken fear of something wacky happening...