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smckenzie

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Declarations of War
« on: February 01, 2009, 11:06:08 AM »
When do we count whether or not the Soviet Union has the 100 PP it needs to DoW Japan?

In our case, the Soviets have 100 or more PP right now, the end of the Soviet turn, but if the Germans (me) were to knock him below 100 PP, would this forestall the Soviet DoW on Japan?

John D.

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2009, 10:20:24 AM »
During the declare war phase (at the beginning of the allied turn), the Soviets must be 100 plus.

John

Bobsalt

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2009, 05:32:05 AM »
We’re getting back into our weekly gaming here again after a long pause, which means – of course – we’re 7 or 8 turns into a new game of The Struggle.

We’re trying out several house rules, including stacking rules for aircraft, Italian morale, Craig’s modified Soviet entry with the changed card draw, and supply rules for ships, as well as a retreat rule for ships.

Italian morale has not been a factor yet, though I do need to ask – Jason lost Ethiopia to the British, but this is not on the morale table. Is this intentional, or should the loss of Ethiopia be a -1 to Italian morale?

The limited stacking has had little effect. Even with the limits Germany was able to overwhelm France with aircraft. Jason always builds maximum aircraft out of the gate as Germany, so when he attacked France in Spring 1940 he had 9 fighters, 2 Stukas, and 2 bombers against France’s one fighter and one bomber. Britain had also built maximum A/C, but they were in England, and would have been outnumbered even if they had been in France. Even with the limits Russia is about to be overwhelmed wih A/C. My next go at trying to address this issue of giant stacks of aircraft is to say that each A/C supports two infantry instead of being on a one-for-one basis. For example, if you have 6 infantry, you could have 3 A/C supporting. In addition, unsupported A/C would have no ground attack factor. I know that sounds harsh, but on the Russian Front we’ve had 20+ German A/C in some battles. Even if half of them are unsupported and are rolling ones, with that many dice you’re still going to get some hits. If anyone has any suggestions on this please speak up.

The impact of the changes to Soviet entry is evident. We’re going (if I recall) into the Summer 1941 turn and the Soviets aren’t even at TL 1 yet (admittedly part of that is REALLY bad card draws by the Soviet player Peter). This will definitely give Germany a few more options early in the war, and probably puts a potential Soviet declaration of war around 1943, which I think is about right historically. Overall I like this change.

Ship supply is going to work just like land combat – if a fleet can’t trace a line of supply back to two production centers they suffer the same penalties as ground units.

The revised retreat comes into play if a fleet is surrounded. In the game, if they have no empty space to retreat to they have to fight on to retreat of elimination. With this rule, they can retreat after one round into an occupied sea zone, but are immediately marked as out of supply, and the first action they take in their half of the turn must be to move back in supply )or at least in that direction – they cannot initiate combat. The rationale here is that in WWII you simply could not trap a fleet the way you can in the game – some ships will always be able to escape, and this house rule reflects that reality.

Jason was absolutely dead set against any changes to the rules to require the Japanese to go after the NEI, so we agreed not to change anything this game. However, this morning something occurred to me that I hadn’t thought of before – pretty bad, when you consider how many games we’ve played at this point. Anyway, that brings me to my question, which (believe it or not) relates to declarations of war.

When the Japanese declare war on the western Allies, does this include the NEI? If so, wouldn’t this mean that their income from the NEI would go to the British (or US)? We have not been playing it this way. I just went back and went through the rulebook and couldn’t find anything specific. On page 38 it says that if Japan attacks the NEI they are then also at war with the western allies, but it doesn’t state the opposite. On the next page it says “If Japan attacks the Western Allies (U.S., Great Britain, Free France and the Dutch East Indies) before they are able to declare war on Japan (before the Allied turn), Japan can conduct a one time only surprise attack.” This is the only place in the rule book where the NEI are listed as a member of the western Allies (which may be why I missed it until now). From this, should we assume that a declaration of war by Japan on the western Allies (and vice-versa) includes NEI? If this is the case, this might make a big difference in Japanese strategy, since the NEI would add 7 points of income to Britain or the US.

By the way, what’s the latest on 1) the new game, and 2) a rules revision for this one. I thought I remembered that the rules were going to get a revision, but haven’t seen anything.

Thanks - Bob
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John D.

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2009, 08:21:19 AM »
Hi Bob,
     The NEI are part of thw western allies with income going to the UK.

AA guns usually even things out with a strong luftwafte - especially for the soviets! Ethiopia has no effect on Italian morale.

Good rule change concerning fleet retreats - we have made that change as well.

Ok rules revisions are happening but Mark has moved to Europe for business for a few years so he will need to settle down first...

Mark

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2009, 08:22:14 AM »
Hi Bob - not intentionally left out, but - I belive once Japan is at war with the Western Allies they are also at war with the NEI.

I'm over working in Europe now for a year or two - so John is going to have to keep up the playtesting and forum monitorning more than me.
 
In the new game, additionaly support units are ignored (do not get a "1" to hit) - that may help with your air problem. . .Eventually, though, Allied air power should overwhelm Germany as they can't keep up with the Brits, Russia and US combined.

Ethiopia was intentionally left out of the Italian morale rules.

cheers,
Mark

Mark

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2009, 08:23:46 AM »
Hi John - good timing!    ;D

Yoper

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2009, 01:45:02 AM »
Quote
In addition, unsupported A/C would have no ground attack factor. I know that sounds harsh, but on the Russian Front we’ve had 20+ German A/C in some battles. Even if half of them are unsupported and are rolling ones, with that many dice you’re still going to get some hits. If anyone has any suggestions on this please speak up.

In the game the we Detroit players have been working on, we have come to the idea of allowing the extra air units (fighters and/or bombers) to support on their attack number, but they use a 12-sided die.

Quote
I am also looking to change a few of the conditions on the USSR Entry Chart.

Specifically, reducing the effect of the USSR placement of the first Medium Armor and first regular fighter to draw (1) card each.

Also, I am going to remove the draw (1) card for maintaining the minimum garrison condition since this situation is already addressed by the condition of the player not drawing any cards if they don't have the garrison in place.

This seemed like a "double-whammy" condition.  The fact that they stop drawing any card if they aren't in compliance should be enough of an incentive to have the garrison.  They shouldn't then get rewarded with a card draw for maintaining the garrisons.

Is this the "adjusted" info that you are speaking of?

I think that this is a nice fix.  Let me know how it works for you.

Craig

Yoper

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2009, 01:47:46 AM »
Quote
I'm over working in Europe now for a year or two - so John is going to have to keep up the playtesting and forum monitoring more than me.

That is what you get for coming up with great ideas. ;D

Actually, this just a convenient excuse for you not to have to play against "Comrade" Dan and his Soviet hordes.  ;)

Craig


Bobsalt

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2009, 06:00:16 AM »
Quote
In addition, unsupported A/C would have no ground attack factor. I know that sounds harsh, but on the Russian Front we’ve had 20+ German A/C in some battles. Even if half of them are unsupported and are rolling ones, with that many dice you’re still going to get some hits. If anyone has any suggestions on this please speak up.

In the game the we Detroit players have been working on, we have come to the idea of allowing the extra air units (fighters and/or bombers) to support on their attack number, but they use a 12-sided die.

Quote
I am also looking to change a few of the conditions on the USSR Entry Chart.

Specifically, reducing the effect of the USSR placement of the first Medium Armor and first regular fighter to draw (1) card each.

Also, I am going to remove the draw (1) card for maintaining the minimum garrison condition since this situation is already addressed by the condition of the player not drawing any cards if they don't have the garrison in place.

This seemed like a "double-whammy" condition.  The fact that they stop drawing any card if they aren't in compliance should be enough of an incentive to have the garrison.  They shouldn't then get rewarded with a card draw for maintaining the garrisons.

Is this the "adjusted" info that you are speaking of?

I think that this is a nice fix.  Let me know how it works for you.

Craig

1. I’m beginning to think that the problem of having large stacks of aircraft is nigh unsolvable in this game. I already can see that basing limitations for each territory isn’t going to have much impact. I really think the problem is the scale of the map. The rules for these work pretty much like World in Flames. The system works in that game because you have short range aircraft and much larger fronts to cover. A fighter with a range of two isn’t an issue on a front that might be 12-13 hexes wide – but on a front only three or four zones wide it’s a major issue. I’m just about at my wits end with this one. I’ve written a lot of house rules for a lot of games over 30 or so years – a solution to this one just continues to elude me.

I had to do some driving for work this morning, and came up with an idea that I’ll toss out. The idea is that aircraft would be a “limited use” unit. The idea is that they could be used once or twice per turn – after that they’re “used” and can’t be used for anything else until the next turn. What I’m going for here is something like WiF where plane counters are flipped over after they’ve flown a mission. Maybe say each plane can be used twice a turn; after that they get turned upside-down to show that they are “used up” until next turn. The idea would be you could use a plane once for an attack, and then you could use it again in the mech phase – but then it would be flipped and you couldn’t use it defensively in your opponent’s turn. Or you could use it once to attack and then save the other action for when you’re on defense (or don’t use it and save both actions for defense). Another idea might be to have an activation table. After the combat phase roll on a table for each plane used – on, say, 1-4 it can be used again but on a 5 or 6 it gets flipped and can’t be used again until your next turn. If you then use one of the same planes in the mech phase you have to roll for each plane again, but the table drops to 1-3. If a plane then gets used on defense in your opponent’s combat phase next turn the roll drops to 1-2. The idea would be that the more you try to use a plane the greater the chance you won’t be able to use it later. This could be said to simulate necessary down time for maintenance, engine replacement, etc. This might cause a player to think abut whether he really wants to commit so many planes to an attack and risk having a lot of them unable to be used later. As I think back on this, I think this may have some potential – comments anyone?

2. The “adjusted” info you mention above is exactly what we’re trying out. I think this is much more realistic. Given everything that was going on in the USSR at the time I doubt they could have realistically considered going to war much before 1943, which with average card draws is about where this modification would put a Soviet DOW (depending on what else the Germans did, of course). One thought – perhaps the German garrison requirement should slowly go up from 5 ala WiF just to keep Germany honest.

Mark, I just have one question. If you’re in Europe, just how does that relate to getting us the things we want? I really have to question you placing your career, family, etc. above catering to what we want. It’s fine that you want to have your little European holiday, but the rulebook revision (and the next game) are not going to publish themselves. Priorities dude. That’s all I’m saying.
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Yoper

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2009, 01:15:50 AM »
I have thought about doing a edit job on the existing rulebook for a long time now.

I have told Mark before that there is a lot of repetition in the many places of the manual that could be cleaned up.

As for the "numbers game" concerning fighters, we never had a problem with unlimited basing, we always were more concerned with the possibility of an air combat going heinously wrong and wiping out one side.  That goes back to our conversation of including aborts into the combat numbers. 

I do understand your concern via the ranges, but only a map with more territories or the reduction of the fighters' ranges with fix this.

Craig

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2009, 08:41:11 AM »
We continued our game last night and it’s developed into a very interesting game. Both sides have some significant opportunities; both sides also have areas where they are really in the weeds.

Jason went for an all-out kill on the USSR. Virtually everything built by both Germany and Japan has been deployed against Russia. As a result, and as you have no doubt guessed, the Soviets are just about done. We just finished the Fall 1942 turn and Moscow is surrounded and out of supply. Peter has three factories in the Urals or he’d be completely out of it – as it is, he’s only building with 41 points. Moscow will fall next turn and then Jason will finish mopping up fairly quickly after that.

The downside is that since he focused so much on the Soviets he hasn’t built much for the IJN – just one CV. As the US, I now have 3 CV’s (2 Pacific, 1 Atlantic) and a CVL on the board (and have 1 CV in the 3 box) so I’m almost at parity. If we can hold on long enough I think the US can almost immediately go on the offensive once Jason declares war on me. Unfortunately, I tried something last night and got a little too cute. I got an extra card from the loss of Stalingrad, which got me to 43 points of cards, so I only built one additional factory this last turn so that I could get a few more units started when I went to war, presumably at the start of next turn. I had already drawn three 2’s and two 3’s so I thought the odds were with me. Naturally, you can probably guess what happened – I drew the last 2 and a 4, so I’m at 49. Of course, this means that I can’t go to war next turn, so he’s got one more turn to prepare before he has to hit me. I have my CV’s covering Hawaii in a zone adjacent to the east, and can move the CVL there next turn as well. I also strategically redeployed a bomber and a heavy bomber to Hawaii so if/when he hits me I may be able to get in a good counter-stroke. A lot will depend on whether he adds his third carrier to the attack – if he does, I’m not sure I want to risk fighting at a disadvantage in fighters. His third carrier is southwest of the Marianas though, so my assumption is that he’ll take Rabaul and Guadalcanal. We agreed to a house rule for this game that Japan can only invade Port Moresby from the Coral Sea, so it’s safe for a turn, and I’m going to see if I can get Peter to strat 3 infantry there.

Overall, my feeing is that by Japan focusing so much on being a land power I’m probably going to be able to achieve dominance in the Pacific fairly quickly. Peter is planning to strat his British CV’s to the Indian Ocean, so even though they can only carry 1 fighter each it will give us overall more carrier-based air than Japan (9-7).

Normally with Russia about to go down I’d say the game’s over. However, last turn Italy also went down (this has raised a couple of questions that I’ll ask at the end of this). We used the alternate surrender rules and Britain spent the last 3 turns or so keeping Italy demoralized. We were able to take Sicily and Milan and one of the North Africa territories to get him to -5. Jason had taken Greece and Crete, but had unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your viewpoint) used some German infantry when he took Greece, so he didn’t get the “Italian only” bonus. We spent the next year in a war of attrition. He took Milan back to “un-demoralize”; we took something else to knock him back to -5. We assumed at some point he was going to have to draw off some ground troops from the Russian front, at which point we’d have had to find something else to do because we couldn’t have matched him if he’d gotten serious about Italy – but he never did. He sent some fighters, which created a lot of problems, but only a few infantry and an 88. Last turn Peter took Tripoli and Sardinia; that got us to the -8 we needed and Italy surrendered. Germany has troops in Milan and the Heel, Venice and Rome are unoccupied, and the rest of Italian territory is in the hands of the British.

If - and in this game, given what Jason has accomplished as the Axis that’s a BIG word – the Axis lose I believe it will because of Italy. Jason had an incredible advantage in the Med and never really tried to take much advantage of it. What do I mean by this? Well, when France surrendered, we rolled for the ships. We always roll them in the order of size, so it goes transport, the destroyers, cruiser, and battleship. On the transport Peter rolled a one. OK, a pain, but it happens. On the first destroyer, a six. Hurrah - one for our side. Then he rolled – and I kid you not – a one, a one, and… a one. Three straight ones. Needless to say, those ships came in REALLY handy for Jason when he brought Italy into the war. He was able to really pound the British fleet in the med. Fortunately Peter immediately started a CA and a BB when the rolls went this way, so he was able to make up most of his losses. But after one ground combat in North Africa and the big fleet battle Jason never really tried to follow it up. The Italians took the territory west of Cairo, but Peter got it back the next turn. After that – it was like Jason just lost interest in that theatre. He relied on Italy to be able to fend for herself. The problem was that Britain had built a factory and rolled through western North Africa very quickly, as well as taking Ethiopia and Syria, so he was up over 50 points, and there was no way Italy was going to be able to compete with that. Jason could easily have sent 10-12 infantry/grenadiers and a few armor down there without making much of a dent in his East Front onslaught - and that would have been the end of that. But, as I said, it never happened. In addition, we have a nice-sized contingent in western France that he’s going to have to deal with. German production is – well, humongous – so he is starting to fort up, but he can’t just leave that lodgment in France indefinitely. If he doesn’t clear it before the US can start sending a bunch of stuff over it’s going to be difficult to push the Allies out.

So, any opinions? Should Peter and I fold, or is it worth fighting on? As I said, normally with the USSR in such sad shape I’d say it’s time to start over. But with Italy gone and Japan weak (or at least, weaker than I usually see them) in the Pacific, I’m thinking we might be able to hold out long enough to for US production to make itself felt. The US is at 145 (before quartering) and has two factories in the 1 box and one in the 2 box, so in two turns I can be at 160. I’ve also occupied Iceland. As I’m writing this it occurs to me that if he makes a Pearl Harbor attack this turn he’s only got 4 fighters to do it with. If he attacks, depending on what’s left it might be worth attacking him with the survivors of PH and my adjacent fleet in a combined air/surface action. If we mutually destroyed each other I think I’m in better shape than he is – I have a CV in the 3 box (2 next turn) with another CV on the East Coast, plus we have the two British CV’s – he has nothing on the build track. I think it could become interesting in the next couple of turns – IF we can hang on.

Here are my questions:

1) Does the Italian factory in Milan fall into German hands or is it considered damaged? The rules say that when a territory with a factory is captured the factory is damaged, but say nothing about surrender. I can see it going either way on this.

2) Can Germany strategically move units into the unoccupied Italian territories? My assumption is no, he can’t because he won’t own them at the beginning of his turn, but since Italy was an ally I can see this argument being raised.

3) Something else I’ve never asked but have assumed – can you load aircraft onto transports and then strategically redeploy them to a friendly territory? I’ve always assumed you can since it says for strategic moves you can put two of any unit on a transport, and this was done routinely in the war. This gains you an extra zone of movement to redeploy the aircraft (which sometimes makes all the difference).

4) In one of the Axis counter-attacks, Italy used a demoralized armor along with some German infantry against some British infantry. We have always played that if armor that is out of supply attacks a territory with no defending armor or AT guns, they attack at 3 – they have a +1 for no enemy armor, and a -1 for being out of supply. Is this correct?
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John D.

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2009, 02:47:19 PM »


Here are my questions:

1) Does the Italian factory in Milan fall into German hands or is it considered damaged? The rules say that when a territory with a factory is captured the factory is damaged, but say nothing about surrender. I can see it going either way on this.

2) Can Germany strategically move units into the unoccupied Italian territories? My assumption is no, he can’t because he won’t own them at the beginning of his turn, but since Italy was an ally I can see this argument being raised.

3) Something else I’ve never asked but have assumed – can you load aircraft onto transports and then strategically redeploy them to a friendly territory? I’ve always assumed you can since it says for strategic moves you can put two of any unit on a transport, and this was done routinely in the war. This gains you an extra zone of movement to redeploy the aircraft (which sometimes makes all the difference).

4) In one of the Axis counter-attacks, Italy used a demoralized armor along with some German infantry against some British infantry. We have always played that if armor that is out of supply attacks a territory with no defending armor or AT guns, they attack at 3 – they have a +1 for no enemy armor, and a -1 for being out of supply. Is this correct?


OK

1) If german units were there when it fell - it falls into their hands. If it is empty (and therefore neutral) it is damaged.
2) Empty spaces are neutral and you can not rail through neutral - you must occupy them.
3) Yes
4) Yes - correct

 :)

Yoper

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2009, 01:57:05 AM »
Sounds like fun!!!! ;D

You should be taking pics of this game for all to see.

Craig

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2009, 04:21:18 AM »
Thanks everyone for the comments. I’d still like an opinion as to whether you think this game is worth continuing. I’ve never been in a game where the USSR has so thoroughly collapsed. I know that some of you have, so that’s why I’d like to know whether it’s worth it or our gaming time would be better spent resetting and starting over. I don’t want for us to get together next time and then find out an hour later that it’s over. If that’s the case it would be better to start over and make the best use of our time.

Another question came up during our play that I just remembered. Can a Italy build a factory while demoralized? What happened in our game is that while Italy was demoralized Jason built a factory in Milan. During the entire turn he never got below -5 on the morale table, so his units were out of supply, but I didn’t know if this (or being truly out of supply) impacted the building of a factory (I’m assuming that a factory is considered to be a “unit” per the rules on page 30 where it says, “Players may not build units in unsupplied production center territories” – is this correct?). Since per the morale rules it’s technically the units that are considered out of supply, not the territories I can see that you might say the factory build is OK.

This was our first game in a very long time, so we’ve missed a lot of things and made a lot of mistakes. Still, these sorts of things have been abut even on both sides, so we’re where we are now, and as I said, it looks interesting. The question is whether the Allies can hang on long enough to prevent a victory on VP’s.

Craig,

I will try to upload some photos of the game where it stands now. No promises – my wife is the expert with the digital camera, and she’s in Brazil right now.
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John D.

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Re: Declarations of War
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2009, 06:28:35 AM »
Hi Bob - You can not build a factory (or anything else) in an out of supply territory. (I'm not sure if that was the question). Without seeing the game I can't say for sure whether to go on. What are the VPs like at this point. Are Paris and Rome in allied hands? - if so - it is probably worth playing out. It sounds like a very interesting game...