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WWII: Struggle for Europe____WWII: Struggle for Asia => Rules Questions & Clarifications => Topic started by: Darkman on April 14, 2015, 12:57:09 AM
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Hello guys!
Have some Question on the newest rulebook.
1) 7.1.3 Hunter killer attacks in a sea zone always precedes ASW and submarine attacks.
Q: So that means if a German submarine moves into a convoy Zone and wants to attack the convoy (by moving 6 spaces) and on a later chit draw an British destroyer moves into that Zone (tactically). Then the destroyer has the option to attack with the hunter killer attack before the convoy is attacked? Does the submarine fire back?
And if the submarines survives.. does the same destroyer helps in ASW defense for the convoy attack?
2) 7.1.4 If moving tactically rather than strategic movement, players can move through enemy sea zones and 'drop' ships to engage the enemy ships in the sea zone.
Q: Can you do this also against submarines by moving in destroyers?
3) 18.0.7 Note: Only mechanized units may conduct a mechanized counter offensive – non-mechanized units may not mechanized counter-offensive.
Q: Means what? are the other units (non mechanized) in reserve ? Are they targetable for the initial attacker in the first attack round or in the bonus attack round or in the following attack rounds?
4) Q: Not in the Rulebook: Do Transport planes stay in "air" with their infantry unit, until the landing phase if moving 3 spaces from friendly territory to another friend territory?
5) Q: Not in the Rulebook: Can planes participate \ attack in mechanized battles that particpated in airbase attacks /defense & strategic attacks / defense in the normal phase?
6) 13.11.8. (see 10.9 above - up to 3 subs can participate in the attack).
Typo? I think it should now say up to 4 Subs ?
7) 17.7 Mixed naval combat and strategic attacks
Typo? I think it should now say, resolve strategic attacks first rather than naval combat?
8)Q: Can Paratroopers & Mountain infantry also be converted into a fortification?
I ask this in respect on your Finnmark(Norwegian) rules.
I don't like to play with it because i don't like a special territory with limited access but it would be hard to attack.
9) Suggestion
Should submarines not get the equal or higher Bonus as airplanes when attacking ships in ports?
Maybe giving it a higher ASW risk if its too easy?
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1) 7.1.3 Hunter killer attacks in a sea zone always precedes ASW and submarine attacks.
Q: So that means if a German submarine moves into a convoy Zone and wants to attack the convoy (by moving 6 spaces) and on a later chit draw an British destroyer moves into that Zone (tactically). Then the destroyer has the option to attack with the hunter killer attack before the convoy is attacked? Does the submarine fire back?
And if the submarines survives.. does the same destroyer helps in ASW defense for the convoy attack?
Yes, the destroyer has the option of conducting a HK attack against the Submarine. The destroyer can either conduct a HK attack or defend the convoy with ASW - not both. The destroyer forfeits its ASW/escort value when it conducts an HK attack (it is out chasing around subs rather than defending the convoy).
After the HK attack the sub can decide whether to do an strategic attack against the convoy zone or do a fleet attack against any ships in the sea zone. Any destroyers/planes that did not HK attack may ASW convoy defense against the sub attack.
Rule 13.12.3 alludes to this, but needs to be more explicit on forfeiting ASW value.
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2) 7.1.4 If moving tactically rather than strategic movement, players can move through enemy sea zones and 'drop' ships to engage the enemy ships in the sea zone.
Q: Can you do this also against submarines by moving in destroyers?
Yes, a player could move destroyers into a sea zone with enemy subs and then snap fire using the hunter-killer value when the enemy subs try to leave the space.
For example, The British could move several planes and destroyers into the bay of Biscay and 'snap-fire' (hunter killer attack) any German subs trying to move through the Bay of Biscay and out to the North Atlantic.
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3) 18.0.7 Note: Only mechanized units may conduct a mechanized counter offensive – non-mechanized units may not mechanized counter-offensive.
Q: Means what? are the other units (non mechanized) in reserve ? Are they targetable for the initial attacker in the first attack round or in the bonus attack round or in the following attack rounds?
So the intent of a counter-offenisve is to enable units to move that have not moved and are pinned by an enemy attack. In he mech phase, the only things that can move are mech units. non-mech units can not move.
So, if a player declares a counter-offensive on the mech phase, the only things that can participate in that counter-offensive as front line or support units are mech units. Everything else has to be placed in reserve and can not move up to support/front line.
If the counter-offensive is successful, the (defending) mech units could then move and attack. The non-mech units would still be stuck in the territory as they can not move in the mech phase.
If the counter-offensive is unsuccessful, the side declaring the counter-offensive revert to being the defenders for the second round of combat. Non-mech units could then move up out of reserve and defend normally going forward.
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2) 7.1.4 If moving tactically rather than strategic movement, players can move through enemy sea zones and 'drop' ships to engage the enemy ships in the sea zone.
Q: Can you do this also against submarines by moving in destroyers?
Yes, a player could move destroyers into a sea zone with enemy subs and then snap fire using the hunter-killer value when the enemy subs try to leave the space.
For example, The British could move several planes and destroyers into the bay of Biscay and 'snap-fire' (hunter killer attack) any German subs trying to move through the Bay of Biscay and out to the North Atlantic.
Hey Mark
Sorry but that doesn't answer my question .. 7.1.4 Points out that you can drop ships when moving through a zone so you can block the enemy from snap fire at you.
My Question is , can you do this also against submarines.
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I am not sure I understand the question - but, dropping a ship does not prevent a submarine from snap firing if you move through the sea zone they occupy. The rule is intended with respect to surface ships and surface combat. Dropping a ship does not prevent a plane that is in the sea zone from bombing whichever whip it wants to from moving through the sea zone either.
Is that the question? Maybe an example would be helpful if not.
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Hey Mark i thought the same that this rule is only for surface vs surface ships but the rulebook doesn't execlude subs explicit :) that was the question yes ! Thank you ! 4, 5, 8 & 9 whenever you have time :-)
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I am editing the rules as we go through these - so thanks for pointing out these inconsistencies and problems. I'll post the updated rules here for your review before posting them officially.
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4) Q: Not in the Rulebook: Do Transport planes stay in "air" with their infantry unit, until the landing phase if moving 3 spaces from friendly territory to another friend territory?
The transport plane may either move up to 3 and 'land' in a friendly territory (and drop off its cargo) or stay in the air (with its cargo still aboard) (for example if it is over a sea zone or something).
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5) Q: Not in the Rulebook: Can planes participate \ attack in mechanized battles that particpated in airbase attacks /defense & strategic attacks / defense in the normal phase?
Yes - any plane that is adjacent to a mech attack (that is not returned or retreated) may move adjacent and participate in the mech phase (regardless of whether it was in a strategic attack or just moved during the regular movement phase).
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6) 13.11.8. (see 10.9 above - up to 3 subs can participate in the attack).
Typo? I think it should now say up to 4 Subs ?
Yes - changing it to 4 subs throughout the rules - good catch.
7) 17.7 Mixed naval combat and strategic attacks Typo? I think it should now say, resolve strategic attacks first rather than naval combat?
Ys - you are correct - changing in the text.
8)Q: Can Paratroopers & Mountain infantry also be converted into a fortification?
Yes - any infantry type unit should be allowed to fort down
9) Suggestion: Should submarines not get the equal or higher Bonus as airplanes when attacking ships in ports?
Maybe giving it a higher ASW risk if its too easy?
Agree - will change in the rules and give subs attacking ports a -2 modifier like planes. I think I will increase the ASW value of a port however and only allow 1 sub to run the port defenses to make a port attack.
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Darkman -
Take a look at these edited rules and let me know if they address the things you have brought up. If the bases are covered, I'll post it to the forum and remove the last version of the rules.
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Mark
Will do , any Chance you can mark all changes you did in yellow please?
Maybe
- Italy starts the 1939 game neutral. Italy’s production points are halved until it declares war to the allies.
- And maybe add the asw rules for the XXI submarine to the the special unit rules
- Change the port attack asw maybe on a value 16 rather than a new 4/7 rule or reflect it on the naval chart.
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OK - I think I highlighted most of the text I changed
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Ok Mark,
the changes are fine i think.
I have another question i can't find an answer in the rulebook.
a) When do i have to decide that a ship is in port or outside? Let say a transports unloads his cargo in a territory on the movement phase Can he instantly decide to go into any port within the same sea zones?
Maybe you want to look at this
- 26.0 And maybe add the asw rules for the XXI submarine to the the special unit rules
- 26.16 Replenishment Ship Rules are differnt on Europe \ Asia Rulebook. Maybe you want to fix it with the final rules on this
- 27.6 Italy starts the 1939 game neutral. Italy’s production points are halved until it declares war to the allies.
- Change the port attack asw maybe on a value 16 rather than a new 4/7 rule or reflect it better on the naval chart.
- Maybe change the port attack for submarines rule so they can at least sink a Ship (2-Hits) ? .. historically "prien" sank the royal oak and damaged another ship with his uboat.
( I would say it should have a higher damage than a plane.. or at least not weaker than a plane)
- Think again about the Finland rules. It's very easy for the Soviets to put some Bombers into Murmansk and bomb every turn on Norway & finland while the germans can't do anything against it
Historically the germans had mountain & inf divisions there but also 88 flaks (petsamo & Helsinki) and a fighter \ bombers squadrons in finland
I would say revert either the old rule or my rule ;-) http://www.ww2wargame.com/forum/index.php?topic=515.msg5212#msg5212
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26.3 Mulberries & 26.4 DD Tanks should say Winter 1941 rather than Spring 1942 according to the British Chart
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French Chart and VP chart updated on dropbox.
Changed the Europe notes on dd tanks and mulberries.
Changed the Finnish rules to: If Leningrad falls to the Axis or if any Soviet units (including planes) enter the post Winter War territories that make up Finland (any Finnish territory other than Vyborg), this restriction is lifted and any number of Axis units may enter Finland and Finnish units may operate outside of their adjacent territory restriction.
This prevents strategic bombing of Finnish points. I still like limiting Finland to winterized German units. Given a unit is really like 2 divisions I think this more or less works. While the Germans deployed some panzers to Finland and some AA units and a regular infantry division, I think these units can be viewed as too small of formations to be reflected as a unit. I don't think the Germans had 2 panzer divisions ever in Finland.
Opening up Finland to all kinds of units led us to some weird game situations like para assaults on Archangel and blitz attacks through the arctic. Rather than making some new arctic rules, I think the winter only units works nicely.
Working on updated Pacific rules and will post here shortly for review.
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Cool Mark,
Yeah the rule change helps a bit, but the germans had airforce in finland , "Luftflotte 1 & 5"
http://www.amazon.com/Luftwaffe-Over-Finland-War-Series/dp/1853674699
"This brilliant new book depicts the Germans' use of aircraft in Finland and Norway to maintain their campaign against the Soviet Union. The Fins were active allies of the Germans in their war against the Soviets and allowed the Luftwaffe considerable freedom in its operations over Russia."
P.S
The French text Format is now different to the text before.. but much better reading- Maybe you want to take a look at it again
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21.0.1 During this phase both sides must check the supply status of every territory on the map. First the initiative owner determines the supply status for his territories, then the initiative loser. For a territory to be ‘in supply’, it must trace a line of supply through friendly owned territories and friendly or neutral sea zones of unlimited length back to two friendly owned production center territories.
I guess it should say sea zones 8 length instead of unlimited length.
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Maybe you want to give a hint in the rulebook that you "Round Up" Vichy production points for the axis , once Vichy syria joins the axis.
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OK - will amend. Also addressed the replenishment ship question in your separate thread.
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Something new for the Rulebook 2015
1) Give me answer on the question in the rulebook:
- What happens if a army is moving into a enemy territory where only air units exist? [Not yet moved, so not in Air"]
John hinted me some years ago
"The must retreat their range to friendly territory/carrier or the unit is eliminated. They can not participate in combat during the current phase."
1.1) and what if they were moved via transport into that territory? Destroyed?
2) When a player moves his planes on any chit draw during the movement Phase from one friendly territory to another... are these planes
- always in air or are they landed and attackable for an airbase attack?
- if a player can decide that their planes are landed or still in air. When he must announce that?
- or can airbase attacks only work on non moved planes ?
3) Please add the winter effect rules for the pacific scenario
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Hi Darkman - Mark is away for the week - so I will answer:
1)Yes - that sentence/hint is correct. If they were moved via transport - same rules - they can retreat if they are able (good question though)
2) We would consider them in the air. Airbase attacks are only vs planes that have not moved...
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Once a Naval battle Is triggered on any movement chit .. Can The defender move more ships into the battle (Reserve) by moving ships strategically (6 or 8 spaces )?
In the rulebook only unloading troops in a Territory that is under attack is forbidden by letting the Transports move strategically.
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Excellent question - I would say no - you can only tactically (4 Europe/3 Pacific) move into an existing Naval battle and participate (be in reserve) . If the ships moved strategically before the battle began - then the defending ships could participate.
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Excellent question - I would say no - you can only tactically (4 Europe/3 Pacific) move into an existing Naval battle and participate (be in reserve) . If the ships moved strategically before the battle began - then the defending ships could participate.
So they Can not move into The zone or only cannot Participate in the battle?
by the way.. are you sure it is 3 (tactical in the pacific)? Pacific Rulebook says 4?
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Neither - to keep it simple...
We did go back and forth with regard to Pacific tactical move - 3 is what was finalized.
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So its official John, pacific tactical move goes down to 3, the last time I read the pacific rules it was still at 4
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Let me check with Mark - he was away - we have never played with a tac move of 4 in the Pacific...
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Please find attached the latest edition of the Asia/Pacific rulebook. I will post it to the forum rules shortly, but wanted to share it here first for feedback.
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What was changed ? :)
New question:
1) Can you move troops into an unoccupied enemy zone on any movement chit and then move troops via transport (strategically) into that territory on the same or another movement chit ? (Is that territory already considered "friendly" ?
2) Can you Transport troops in the movement phase that already moved / activated ?
Is this a valid move?
By the way .. do you guys ever thought on a rule that you loose control of an unoccupied territory if it is too far away from the next unit or supplied territory.. keeping track of the owner of territories in no mans land :D
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1) No - Strategic transport during combat phase into territories that started the beginning of the turn as friendly.
2) I'm assuming you are asking if you can pick up troops that have already moved on a later chit draw. - no.
Great questions!
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I'll see if I can clarify in the rulebook.
Per the question regarding moving into an empty space with only enemy air units, I added rule 9.0.3:
9.0.3 If a player moves ground units into an enemy territory only occupied by enemy air units that have not yet moved (i.e. are still ‘on the ground’), the enemy air units must immediately retreat and fly their range to another friendly owned territory where they can land (or are eliminated). The displaced air units are considered to have moved and may not move again on a later chit draw. The territory moved into by the ground units is considered unoccupied enemy territory.
Does that cover it?
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Can those air units participate in a mech battle or are they considered to be "returned"?
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Can submarines move strategic through enemy controlled sea zones (markers) in the non-combat phase without restrictions?
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yes - subs ignore sea zone control. If not clear, I'll go back into the rulebook to make sure it is clear.
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OK - added clarity to some of the rules regarding these questions. Let me know if these don't address issues raised or are not clear.
7.5.2 Units may not embark on transports if they have already moved on an earlier chit draw on the movement phase. Units may not move again once they disembark from transports during a later chit draw during the movement phase. Being moved by transports from one territory to another are the entire move for conveyed units during the movement phase.
7.5.4 Transports moving strategically (8 spaces) must pick up all of their cargo adjacent to where units embark from. Transports always end their movement in the space they drop units off from. When moving strategically, units may not be dropped off in a territory that is already being attacked or that was not friendly owned at the beginning of the movement phase.
20.1.2 Unlike other naval units, submarines ignore enemy controlled sea zones on the non-combat movement phase.
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Can strategically moving transports pick up from multiple adjacent territories from starting sea zone?
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OK - re-worded to make it hopefully more clear:
7.5.4 Transports moving strategically must pick up their cargo adjacent to the sea zone the transport starts the movement phase in (could be from multiple territories adjacent to the same sea zone). Transports always end their movement in the space they drop units off from. When moving strategically, units may not be dropped off in a territory that is being attacked or that was not friendly owned at the beginning of the movement phase.
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So Mark can I strategically move a transport loaded with 3 inf from Irish Sea, it finishes its move somewhere off the west coast of africa, then on the non combat move move it strategically again to Red Sea?
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absolutely - yes.
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Added additional clarity:
7.5.4 Transports moving strategically must pick up their cargo adjacent to the sea zone the transport starts the movement phase in (could be from multiple territories adjacent to the same sea zone). While units may remain on a transport at the end of the movement phase, transports always end their movement in the space they drop units off from. When moving strategically, units may not be dropped off in a territory that is being attacked or that was not friendly owned at the beginning of the movement phase.
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Reading the Europe rules, I have a question about 9.2 Counter-offensives. If Player A attacks a territory without any armor units, and player B declares a counter offensive, and has armor, does Player B's armor get the bonus for having armor attacking an opponent without any armor?
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Yes - as both players are the attacker, both would apply attacker bonuses and modifiers. If player B has armor and player A does not have any armor, Player B armor would receive a +2 modifier.
Maybe I need to clarify that as well. . .damn just posted the updated rules.
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Another thing Mark, if I start a ground battle with 7 units, lose 2 on the first round of battle, then on the reinforcement toll I get 4 units to move up from the reserves, do I get to bring all 4 as front line units for a total of 9, or I only have to bring up 2?
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You only start with 6 (or 7), but you can reinforce up beyond that. Note that the support table goes all the way up to 10+ front line units.
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You would get all 4 units to the front line. Remember that support units (artillery, AA) in reserve that move into a support role move for free (they don't count toward the reinforcement number).
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Hey guys!
Another two question.
1 )Can infantry that is landed via transport, accompany tanks in mechanized phase ? I think the rulebook only denying mech-units / planes that are landed via transport to skip their mechanized phase.
2) Can British planes land on US Carrier? Can British Infantry accompany british tanks, landing crafts and so on.. and vice versa?
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Good questions that need clarifying. Made the following edits:
Removed the "mech" before units in rule 18.0.4
18.0.4 Units (including Blitz leaders) and air units may NOT move in the mechanized phase if they retreated from a battle during the regular combat phase. Additionally, units (and Blitz leaders) may not move during the mech movement phase if they were moved via naval transport (either tactically or strategically) on the regular movement phase. Players may need to mark units not eligible to move on the mech phase with a die or counter to note which units are allowed to move.
added the last sentence to rule 26.2
26.2 Landing Craft
When conducting amphibious invasions (attacks against enemy owned territories), front line units must be landed via landing craft. Landing craft count as a non-infantry unit for transport capacity limits. Therefore, transports used for amphibious assaults can carry one landing craft plus one infantry or DD Tank. Landing Craft are expended and removed from play after utilization in an amphibious assault if there is a battle. If landed on an enemy controlled shore containing no enemy front line units, the landing craft is not removed. Landing craft are not ground combat units and do not count toward port supply capacity. Landing craft can be railed. Landing craft may be used to land units of any nationality that can move and attack with the nationality of the landing craft (i.e. a U.S. landing craft can be used to land a British infantry unit).
Added the last sentence to the US nationality rules (though they already say US armor and US infantry)
U.S. infantry may accompany U.S. armor units on the mechanized phase at a 1:1 ratio (i.e. each U.S. armor unit may ‘carry’ one U.S. infantry unit during the mechanized phase). Additionally, U.S. AA Gun units are motorized. US armor may not carry British/CW infantry and vice versa.
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And another one.
Can the Commonwealth conquered territores PP go to british Income in the same way as minor axis PP to the germans?
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Yes - edited 3.0.3 - does this capture it correctly?
3.0.3 In order for a country to receive production points from an enemy occupied territory or any nation that is neutral or a minor ally (with a white circle around the production value of the territory), the territory must be occupied by at least one ground unit (any infantry, armor, or artillery type unit). At least one of the units in the territory must be of the nationality receiving the production points (e.g. If British and U.S. infantry occupy a territory, the territory’s production points can go to either U.S. production or the British production). Enemy territories occupied by Axis minors (e.g. Romanian, Hungarian, etc.) may be counted as either German or Axis minor production. British and Commonwealth occupied territories may be counted as either British or Commonwealth. If a (white circle) territory is not occupied, the owning player does not get to count that territory's production value. This rule abstracts the effect of partisans as well as the need for local garrison, security and logistics forces.
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Jep ! I'm getting happy about the rulebook!
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Can for example the soviet strategically bomb own territores that are occupied/captured by the Germans the turn earlier , even when the territory gave no income for germany this round? ( no garrision) and how to keep track which territores gave pp to axis and which not ? :)
if the soviets can bomb every territory regardless if the german Player got income from it.. can the axis freely abandon the territory (removing the flag marker) so the russian Player can't just Keep some germans occupied territores to bomb them every other turn..
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Great questions Darkman - we eventually will have all the rules holes filled in!
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You can bomb any territory the enemy is collecting income from. If the Germans are collecting income from Minsk, the Soviets can bomb it (for up to 1pp - what it is worth).
If the enemy is not collecting income from the territory, it can not be bombed to reduce enemy PP as they did not collect anything from it.
If needed, I would mark any territories with a chit or die that income is not being collected from if you need to in order to avoid confusion (i.e. if the Germans just took Minsk - or did not occupy it to collect production, the Soviets could not reduce German PP by bombing it). Usually it is clear what is owned and not, but mark it if their is some ambiguity.
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1.When moving a paratrooper + Transport plane into an enemy territory. Do i have to attack or can i deny the attack?
2.If i can deny it , can the AA fire on me ?
3. Does the AA flying over territory rule only trigger when i fly through the territory and not just into the territory?
4. If it Triggers when flying into the territory.. Can my AA attack twice? One time for the flying over AA and one time for the paratroopers drop into battle?
The rules are not so much helpful in this :)
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The transport with the para, will be fired by any existing AA guns in the enemy territory , when flying over it without conducting an air assault or being a part of a combined ground and air assault but only once, I think you will need to declare an air assault or just say you flying over the territory. I can see tho AA guns firing twice a turn, first when enemy planes fly over it through the territory where AA are in, conducting a strategic attack, and second if the territory the AA are in gets attacked they can be used as a front line unit or as AA if the enemy has planes supporting his attack. Rules doesn't say anything about AA firing only at one target so I read it as you can,?
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Good question - Ground AA gets to fire once at every unit flying over it. If the air unit(s) does not participate in the land battle (dropping a paratrooper, ground attack, strat bombing or movement interdiction), AA does not fire on it.
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You always resolve strat attacks before ground attacks, can a AA unit that fire against strat attacks, be a front line unit on the ground battle? Rules don't say no so I always play it as a yes. Plus AA units fire against air units that fly THROUGH their territory even when the planes moving through don't attack( strat or ground ) the territory they are located. It's in the rules.
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Ok in see we need some example
A british Bomber Is moving from London To Bremen. Bremen has an AA Unit.
The AA Unit fires immediately on the Bomber. If the bomber attacks in the combat phase ( strategic , airbase , battle ) the same AA Can Fire again on the bomber?
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No Darkman it only fires immediately when you fly through the territory. At your example the AA will fire when you start resolving the strat attacks. Now if the same bomber had flown through a territory that had an AA unit before it finishes its movement in Bremen, that AA unit will fire immediately. It's on paragraph 8.4.1 in the rule book .
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I'll try to make this more clear in the rules. . .but it is essentially just like snap fire. If the enemy air unit tries to move out of the territory with the AA unit in it, the AA gun may snap fire at it. If the air unit just stays in the territory to bomb, the AA fire can be resolved on the combat phase normally.
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I'll try to make this more clear in the rules. . .but it is essentially just like snap fire. If the enemy air unit tries to move out of the territory with the AA unit in it, the AA gun may snap fire at it. If the air unit just stays in the territory to bomb, the AA fire can be resolved on the combat phase normally.
But what if the air unit stays in the territory but doesn't bomb in the combat Phase ?
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hmmm I dont see a reason flying over an enemy territory but not bombing it.
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Especially when the risk got too high to paradrop / bomb. Also to let the enemy believe there will be a landing but there won't be one.
The Allies did a pretty good Job to give the Germans the runaround
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You will still be subject to AA fire anytime you flying over an enemy territory, attacking it or not, unless it's the non- combat movement phase.
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That's what i would assume but the rulebook doesn't cover it. I think Mark will it make more clear. You could assume that you get attacked twice (one for the "flying over" and one for the battle) or you can assume that if it is like "snapfire" that you will get no AA fire if you won't leave territory in the movement Phase nor attack in the combat phase.
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Hello
i think 14.5.2 i missing if the attacker comes with units from river / amphibious and some units from other neighbor territores without Penalty then the defender gets no bonus?
14.5.2 Attacker and defender modifiers for amphibious invasions, as well as major river assaults and attacks over straights only apply to the first round of combat. If some units are attacking over a river and some are not, keep them separated on the combat chart and apply the appropriate modifiers to both groups.
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Some more
1. Does the Yamato Count the the Battleship Maximum Limit? Or better can the japanese have a battleship + the yamato on the building list at the same time?
2. Regarding 27.9.5 Allied minor builds
Beginning in Winter 1941 the British may build Allied minor units at British production centers. Allied minors represent the Free French, Polish, and other nationalities that also fought for the Allies and were largely supplied by British and U.S. equipment. Once Paris is liberated by the Allies, the maximum builds for Allied minor infantry increases to 2 and one of the Allied minor infantry may be built in Paris in addition to British production centers.
Reading the British Chart it says: Up to 2 FF may be build in Paris. What is correct?
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Hello
i think 14.5.2 i missing if the attacker comes with units from river / amphibious and some units from other neighbor territores without Penalty then the defender gets no bonus?
14.5.2 Attacker and defender modifiers for amphibious invasions, as well as major river assaults and attacks over straights only apply to the first round of combat. If some units are attacking over a river and some are not, keep them separated on the combat chart and apply the appropriate modifiers to both groups.
Correct
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OK -
Calrified 14.5.2
14.5.2 Attacker and defender modifiers for amphibious invasions, as well as major river assaults and attacks over straights only apply to the first round of combat. If some units are attacking over a river and some are not, the defender does not receive the river/amphibious defense bonus, but keep the attackers separated on the combat chart and apply the appropriate attacker penalty for those attacking over the river/amphibious assaulting.
Added that the Yamato does not count against Japanese battleship maximum builds
Changed the rules to "both" Allied minor infantry can be built in Paris to reflect the British Country card.
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Nice catch 8)
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:)
Not in the rules but i'm guessing.. Can out of supply Transport planes / out of supply paratroopers go on a paradrop mission?
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I am sure this is in the check for supply section. . .I will check
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I am sure this is in the check for supply section. . .I will check
Yeah sorry you are right. I overseen it :(
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How do you resolve a naval battle when one of the sides has only transports and subs? Do you fire on the transports for one round with your naval units, and if they are lucky withdraw from the battle after the first round, then have the sub round of battle follow? Anybody plz.
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Yes correct. But nothing is forced to attack. You don't have to attack the Transport with your fleet and the enemy Sub doesn't Need to attack the fleet if the fleet asw is too high:)
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yup, correct. Let me read through the rules again to make sure that is clear. . .
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The Rules 13.12.2 and 13.13.2 Point out that you a) can't do HK against submarines when beeing in fortified ports and b) that you can do snapfire when they leave Zone on the HK table.
But what if planes attack the port or doing a snapfire attack when submarines leave the port ? -2 DRM on their bombing ability (Naval Chart) or -2DRM on the HK table?.
I would assume that it's a bombing Mission on the naval Chart?
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Yes - bombing subs in port is like bombing any other naval unit. HK values are not used to bomb ships in port.
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Ok thanks John,
another one to 11.3.3 (Airbase attacks)
The rules state that you can have multiple air-air rounds in an airbase attack but only one round of bombing is allowed. Question about this is: Does it mean that each bomber / fighter can do 1 round of bombing or is it only 1 round of bombing at all.
Example: A german ME109 + 1 stuka attacking an british airbase. There is an splitfire + an bomber. One the first round the ME109 is fighting against the splitfire and the stuka is trying to hit an british bomber on the ground but misses his target. The ME109 Forces the the splitfire to retreat.
Can the ME109 try to bomb the british bomber or even the splitfire that returned to the attacked airbase (11.3.4) on a 2nd Round?
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One round of ground bombing. But, is it relevant? The British player would just retreat after the first round - and get the bomber out of there. If the Spitfire is returned - it is out of the combat too - so could not be attacked on the ground either.
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One round of ground bombing. But, is it relevant? The British player would just retreat after the first round - and get the bomber out of there. If the Spitfire is returned - it is out of the combat too - so could not be attacked on the ground either.
It's just because 11.3.4 says this
Note, defending planes that retreat or are returned from an airbase attack may land in the territory being attacked. The defender still owns the territory and planes are still allowed to retreat or return to airbases that have been attacked. In the example above, if the British player instead decided to scramble the mosquito, he would be able to retreat it back to the airbase on Malta after one round of air-to-air combat.
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Once you have retreated, you can't be attacked again. I'll try to re-word it, but that is the way it should be played
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I just looked through the new edits on the U.S. And the Italian cards, I like the +1 only boost of Italian morale, I always though +2 was a bit too much, that kept Italy in the war well into the 1944. I also saw US received an extra inf and light tank, plus a boost of their pre war income and lend lease limits, what was the idea( thinking) behind it? If there is another small chance I didn't notice it,
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You are fast. . . I have not even told John about those changes yet (he will protest). . .
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I like the Italian change. Extra units for US is good. On the fence with US lend lease increase.
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I meant for the US force changes only to apply to 1941 start - I'll need to edit that.
Based on some of the discussion here, I am tweaking a few of the country charts to playtest out.
1) US production pre-war. Currently the US typically lend leases nearly all of its pre-war production to the UK prior to going to war. I think the production level is about right for lend lease, but in addition to lend lease, the US built up its armed forces quite a bit between 1939 and 1941 - so I wanted to reflect this better with the US pre-war production levels. I want to leave US initial at start forces the same, but increase the 1941 start force pool by 1 infantry and 1 armored unit (to make up for the additional production the US would receive after the fall of France).
2) Soviet Border requirements. I want to make Bessarabia one of the border requirement territories. To do this, I am going to drop the border requirements from 7 ground and 1 air to 6 ground and 1 air unit. I think I need to start the Soviets with an additional air unit and perhaps a couple of additional infantry units to accommodate this change.
3) Italian Greek Conquest. I think I am going to change this to a +1 morale modifier and let it apply to both Italian surrender conditions and to 'new roman empire' build conditions. Nine out of 10 times we play the Italians go for this, and I would like it to be more of a trade off than a no-brainer.
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I think starting he Soviets with 1 fighter in the "1" build box would be fun and realistic
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Quick clarification guys, since after Spring 43 you don't roll for minor triggers, can you move the 5 Russian units from the Turkish border?
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Yes
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One more conflict, the U.S. PTO set up card has the hvy Bombers ground attk/naval attk values as 7/3, but the counter its self at 6/3, maybe the B-29 is 7/3 and the B-24 6/3?
PS. I just noticed British hvy Bombers have the same printing error
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Great catch - everything is supposed to be 6/3
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I'm planning on playing a pacific game soon, I'm very familiar with the European rules, I'm going to read the national rules but don't feel like reading everything, is there anything different besides the 3 tactical move?
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Not that I can think of. Mainly just Country specific rules.
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You don't apply winter modification on some territories & & there is no 2nd Mechanized in summers. Other than that i think there is no difference
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Tactical movement for ships is 3 instead of 4.
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Q:
1) When doing an airbase attack and the Defender moves up his fighter.. After 1 Round of bombing the fighters of both sides still can do air to air battles.. if one side would retreat his fighters before a 2nd round starts it is counted as a retreat for mechanized Phase , right? So These planes can't fight in mechanized battle?
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That's how I play it, any kinda retreat, and you don't get to move in the mech phase.
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Correct - once you retreat air - no participation in mech phase
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Q:
When attacking for example rome from 2 different sea zones.. One has landing crafts for frontline.. but the other force has no landing crafts.. can these Units go into reserve? or can't they go into reserve because from this shore there is no landing crafts ?
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Think of it as landing craft allow a front line unit paired with it to be on the front line for the first round of battle. All other units (front line and support) not paired with a landing craft that are dropped off via transport (regardless of what sea zone) are considered reserve on the first turn.
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Calrified 14.5.2
14.5.2 Attacker and defender modifiers for amphibious invasions, as well as major river assaults and attacks over straights only apply to the first round of combat. If some units are attacking over a river and some are not, the defender does not receive the river/amphibious defense bonus, but keep the attackers separated on the combat chart and apply the appropriate attacker penalty for those attacking over the river/amphibious assaulting.
Thanks Mark. What about Planes ? I think All Planes shouldn't get the -1 Modifier if only some units go over river and the rest not ? Right?
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correct - and modified:
14.5.2 Attacker and defender modifiers for amphibious invasions, as well as major river assaults and attacks over straights only apply to the first round of combat. If some units are attacking over a river and some are not, the defender does not receive the river/amphibious defense bonus and attacking air units are not penalized, but keep the attacking ground units separated on the combat chart and apply the appropriate attacker penalty for those attacking over the river/amphibious assaulting.
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Pacific Rules Questions
1. Are you only able to do convoy damage up to the value the japanese get from the territories? Lets say the japanese only own Celebes in supply and got income from it this turn.
So the U.S can only do 1 PP damage to the convoy zone?
2. How is Leader elimination in "Sea battles" working : When the last ship is destroyed in a fleet battle, is the Leader eliminated?
3. Since all ships return to Harbors on the NCM Phase (Normal & Fortified Harbors)
Example to this:
On the next turn movement Phase the US moves a mixed fleet (carriers + battleships) to engage a japanese fleet next to an normal harbor.
Since normal Harbors don't protect the japanese fleets the US wants to attack that fleet.
Do their planes get the Harbor attack Bonus? (-2DRM) Or do the planes only get the Bonus if their Surface fleets decides not to attack the japanese fleet?
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Pacific Rules Questions
1. Are you only able to do convoy damage up to the value the japanese get from the territories? Lets say the japanese only own Celebes in supply and got income from it this turn.
So the U.S can only do 1 PP damage to the convoy zone?
2. How is Leader elimination in "Sea battles" working : When the last ship is destroyed in a fleet battle, is the Leader eliminated?
3. Since all ships return to Harbors on the NCM Phase (Normal & Fortified Harbors)
Example to this:
On the next turn movement Phase the US moves a mixed fleet (carriers + battleships) to engage a japanese fleet next to an normal harbor.
Since normal Harbors don't protect the japanese fleets the US wants to attack that fleet.
Do their planes get the Harbor attack Bonus? (-2DRM) Or do the planes only get the Bonus if their Surface fleets decides not to attack the japanese fleet?
1) Yes
2) we never addressed losing naval leaders - naval units and leaders can always retreat (unlike certain land scenarios)
3) Any ships in ANY harbor are subject to the air attack bonus regardless of an ensuing surface fleet engagement.
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Hey John ,
thanks for reply.
to 2. Why not eliminating Leaders on Sea like Uboat Aces? Much more likely.. if the fleet goes completely down the leader goes down. Like with Günther Lütjens (Bismarck) & Yamaguchi
to 3.
I think i have to decribe the question with a huge example to point it out
New Example :
Summer 1942: NCM Phase -> All ships return to Harbors. The Turn Ends
Autumn 1942: Movement Phase -> The japanese got the Initative and is moving a fleet next to Port Moresby.
A US Fleet is harbored in Port Moresby. The japanese are moving a Group of fighters and naval Bombers to the sea Zone in which the U.S fleet is to point out that they want to attack their Harbor.
Now on the U.S movement Phase The US then Splits the harbored fleet and some moving out of the Harbor into the open Sea of Port Moresby. (Same Sea Zone) they are not leaving the sea zone
Question1: "Can the japanese now attack these ships (that are moving out) with his planes an -2 DRM Attack as an "Snap Fire attack"?
Question2: "Can planes on US Carriers help for Defense when moving out of the harbor ?
To Pearl Harbor and other Harbor attacks
I really would limit the harbor attacks to 1 Round attacks.. like airbase , startegic attacks
They are devastating alone. Even when looking on Peal Harbor with at -3 DRM Suprise attack it is very easy to completely wipe out the U.S fleet in 1 Round.
You regulary do much more damage then in history. In this case either the bonus is too strong or the fleet in Pearl Harbor is too small (Maybe one more Cruiser & Destroyer or more defense fighters?)
I regulary can attack with 7 japanese Planes from Marshal Islands (3 fleet carriers + 1 light carrier + Replenishment ship + local supply)
While the U.S have only 1 fighter to defend
US Fleet
8 battleships
8 cruisers
30 destroyers
4 submarines
1 USCG Cutter
49 other ships
≈390 aircraft
Japanese Fleet
6 aircraft carriers
2 battleships
2 heavy cruisers
1 light cruiser
9 destroyers
8 tankers
23 fleet submarines
5 midget submarines
414 aircraft
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Do Planes that start from carriers also have a reduced range in the landing phase ?
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I will leave the leader question to Mark.
The answer to both of your questions is yes. :)
Carrier planes have reduced range in landing phase (range of 1).
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Hey John !
Thanks for answering!
One more question To the example above. Unlike Fighters do the naval Bombers have to stay on the Carrier in snap Fire attacks so they sink with an possible hit on the Carrier?
I like the pacific scenario very much.
It just seems the U.S does not have the power to engage the japanese naval forces until 1943.
Is the U.S a bit underpowered?
Since the Japanese carriers have now 2 hit Points it's even harder to engage.
@John: Any news about the Europe map changes ? :-)
Have a nice day!
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Planes that are on a carrier that is sunk on the snap fire phase are lost.
Map changes will be addressed after next week - big project right now...:)
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So Even the defending fighter Is lost after the snap Fire . And has no Option To fly elsewhere? Because otherwise why i should not just let all Planes go into the sky , Fighters & naval Bombers
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All planes on a carrier get sunk with it if the carrier is moving while it is snap fired against (i.e. - if a British carrier with a swordfish onboard is moving strategically through a sea zone with an enemy sub & the sub snap fires and scores a hit when the carrier moves out of the sea zone - the swordfish would go down with the carrier.
In your harbor attack scenario, the US carrier in Port Moresby could launch its planes before it attempts to move out of the harbor, so the planes would not be on deck when the carrier moves.
Attacking Japanese planes would get the -2 drm on the first round of combat prior to the surface combat phase in the Japanese surprise Port Moresby attack you describe above. . .best not to leave your carriers in tactical range of the enemy.
Mark
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Example:
There are two naval battles next to each other in the pacific. The initative winners(Japanese) battle is first.. the us ships are forced to retreat) Now the iniative loser battle is taking place.. (naval Bombers are attacking the japanese carriers)
Can the US Leader Naval (Air to Surface) attack rerolls be used for the second battle or cannot? (Because he and the whole fleet had to retreat in the first battle)
I would say it can be used ? But the rules don't adress this
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Next one.
Let's say you move your carrier + 2 planes to the next fortified port in the NCM Phase to repair the ship in the next build Phase.
Q: Do the planes have to go into the shipyard aswell or can the be placed to a territory next to the shipyard.. so you can actually use them in the turn
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Rule difference
7.0.11 says that you pick Target after AA shoots while 13.1 has first picking Target and then shoot AA.. why must that be different ? I would prefer (13.1)
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For the first question, the U.S. naval leader can use his air re-roll for any battle planes launched off of his carrier are in - either the Japanese attack against his fleet or the battle his planes are in in the adjacent space. If he chooses not to use his leader in the Japanese attack against his fleet, he can use his re-rolls in the battle his planes are in attacking the Japanese - per rule 1.5.6
For the second question, you must assign your planes first and then AA is rolled per rule 13.1. Rule 7.0.11 refers to snap fire - but I will change it to reflect the process in 13.1. Air units are always assigned before AA is rolled.
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Quick question guys, the piece list on the Dropbox page says you will need 10 Fw-190s but when you print the air unit page there are only 8 counters, do I have to print the whole page for only these 2 counters?😳
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I'll change the purchase sheet to 8. You should only have to print all the counter sheets once to have enough pieces for the game.
For my game, I only have 6 FW units and it is usually enough (though we did run out at ConSimWorld last year). I would say 8 is enough. There are always chips and other creative ways to cover if you end up in 1944, max build your Focke-Wulfs and none of them have been shot down.
Mark
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Can Fighters like the p51 or p-38 also Land on carriers ? And if yes, is their movement reduced to 1 or -1 ?
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Only planes with a range of 2 may land on carriers - so the p-38 and p-51 would be prohibited. Per the rules:
7.4 Aircraft carriers and movement
Carriers may carry fighter and tactical bomber air units (any air unit with a movement rating of 2). Some nationalities have restrictions on the type of air units that may land and take off from a carrier discussed below in the special units and nationality rules sections.
7.4.1 Both aircraft carriers and the air units they convey may both move tactically during the movement phase (i.e. a carrier moves 4 spaces, the air unit may then take off from the carrier and fly into combat with the anticipation of returning back to the aircraft carrier after combat).
7.4.2 Fighter and tactical bombers taking off from an aircraft carrier have a movement range of “1” instead of the usual range of “2” for these types of planes. Therefore, carrier planes can only attack adjacent sea zones or islands when taking off from an aircraft carrier.
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Anything on a carrier has a range of 1 regardless of printed range
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I'm trying to find what has been changed on the allied inf file but I can't.
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I don't believe there are any changed to the Allied Infantry file in the dropbox. For some reason it was deleted, so I re-added it to the folder today.
Mark
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Oh ok, I received an email about a change in it, I looked thru it and wasn't be able to find any changes.
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I have a couple of questions regarding the updated European map, besides the greek territory change, the po river in northern Italy, and the relocations of the convoy zones, are there any other changes on the map?
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Depends on the version you have and you look at.
- Baltic Sea changes
- Loire River in France
(Depends on your version)
- Struggle of Europe & Asia Logo
- Some Rivers in Russia
- VP in Archangel
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Why not changing either that up to 4 submarines can stay To a merchant Raider and 4 paratroopers can support a battle Or better only up to 3 submarines can do an Fleet asw (like paratroopers ) would make more sense to have a similar fixed number For paratroopers , submarines , Merchant Raider ?
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Originally it was 3 subs and we changed it to 4 to be consistent with engaged naval surface units in a combat. I don't want to change paratroopers up to 4 units, but would consider changing subs back to 3 if people find this confusing. I think keeping it consistent with engaged naval units may be a better number to keep it consistent with.
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Are the finish infantry are considered "winterized" similiar as the soviet shock troops for every winter?
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Yes.
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I'm doing some german Player aids
While doing this i still find some uncovered rules:
1. Do Merchant Raiders Act like uboot when moving through asw straights ( Gibraltar , denmark)?
1.1 and Is there a Difference when they Switch Flags (neutral, not neutral ) For this ?
2. Can the italian Surface ships move through Gibraltar or Suez while beeing neutral ?
- the rules of the straights don't Cover a neutral italy. But the 1941 setup of italy has an increased infantry reinforcement so somehow it has to be possible.
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#1: I play it, when merchant raiders have the neutral flag on they can go thru straights, but when they display the Axis flag can only go thru straights that are axis friendly(Denmark).
#2: Italian navy CAN go thru Gilbraltar or Suez while Italy is still neutral. They will have to go back to an Italian port at the end of the turn
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Correct!
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1) When Vichy France falls, do the Allies have to move land units into the empty territories in order to land planes on it in the future?
2) When is the Option to decide to be "in Port" or "outside"? Do you have to activate the ships for it? or can you do it anytime after you draw a chit without spending the movement points for the ships?
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1) Allies will have to move a land unit into an empty vinchy territory, after it collapses to land planes, there are still axis owned but axis can't receive income anymore unless an axis unit occupies them.
2) that's a great question, I would think if you didn't move your naval units in port at the end of the last turn, on a chit draw that these naval units can be activated, will be able to move in port.
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To be considered out of port - you need to activate it on your movement chit - if you didn't declare it - the ships are considered to be in port
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Yes - since ships have to return to port on the NCM phase, they are considered in port until they move on a chit draw.
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1. Can Stukas & Sturmoviks directly attack AA that participate in an Airbase / Port Attack?
2. If moving 2 spaces with an Transport + landing craft to unload troops in an enemy unoccupied space.
Can another transport move 4 spaces tactical to unload troops there in the same chit draw?
(For example the 0' Chit)
Or better say do only the transports that deliver "frontline Units" have to move 2 spaces and the rest can move up to 4 spaces (for reserve) ?
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1) no
2) yes
Great questions!