ASW table

[Darkman]

When one considers that during the war more than half of all the U-boats sunk at sea were sunk by aircraft
Looking at the new table i saw that air unit only modify the return table and no difference to the eliminate row?

While the old table gave a -1 DRM to everything.

Is this correct?

[John D.]

Mark can answer upon return to this planet

[Darkman]

Yeah we have to wait

Page 23: says . Note that if the convoy zone contains one or more combat aircraft (fighters or bombers) the ASW die roll is modified by -1 (see naval combat chart).

But the Naval combat Chart says something different

[John D.]

Oh - that was an older rule - Use the combat naval chart for sure.

[Darkman]

Up again

Question:

Looking at the new table i saw that air unit only modify the return table and no difference to the eliminate rows?

While the old table gave a -1 DRM to everything.  Is this intended?

[John D.]

I believe the concept on ASW defense was to protect convoys as a priority rather than kill subs. That is what HK is for.

[Mark]

I was playing around with an adjusted ASW Table and put together this: Not sure on the impact to sub warfare though. . .
            

[John D.]

Looks vicious...

[Darkman]

How about this ? Increasing the Air Support rows but not increasing the DD rows.

[Mark]

Further Modification - I integrated the fleet ASW into the same table (just one better at returns). Hopefully, this will not make it too bloody for subs that the current version, but also emphasizes the use of planes to kills subs.

Mark

[Darkman]

I like it , except having a bad feeling for the increased return values for 2DD and 3DD without planes .. But on the other hand, there are now more convoys zones.. So the axis can split up.. mmh what does John say?

But having a new table allows us to think more about Harbor Defense table and submarines attack modifiers for ships in harbors?

[Mark]

Back on this topic. . .

I did not like how in the last game that 2 DD were better at defending against subs than 1 DD + air.   So. . .have been doing some researching on uboat.net (and, I have to say, watched Das Boot the other day) and have a couple ideas.

Option 1 is to adjust the current table to emphasize the use of air in ASW.   Option 2 is a departure from the current table and to move to something like the AA table where you add up points and then roll.

I think you point out correctly that about half the u-boats were sunk by air during the war (and it looks like most of those were by bombers or sea plane type units).  I think this is why we want to give bombers an edge in HK attacks.  But it also looks like the best convoy defenders were a combination of air and escorts - plus it would be better to incent the Allies to invest in carriers and long range aircraft to defend their convoy zones.   Any feedback? 

[Darkman]

Hey Mark,

very cool.. i like the "Option 2" somehow as more as i think about it. 

Questions:
I guess carriers would be able to  give asw defense without destroyers?
Would the Hunter-killers roll on the points table aswell?

I like it

[John D.]

Yeah - option 2 is better - it allows for more destroyers to take part if needed. The 3 max is kind of artificial compared to the Option 2 chart

[Mark]

OK - please take a good look at the values for option 2 and make sure they make sense and will work (and there are not some gamey things that it might generate).  Let's try it for our next game in December, John.