XXI Type Uboat "Elektroboote"

[Darkman]

Talking with Mark about that earlier.. now i tried to give that one some stats

How about another "wonder weapon" for late game?

Spring 1944 [1944 no other submarine types were build. only XXI ] 
Due to heavy allied bombing, and other reasons  only 118 assembled XXIs, and only four were rated fit for combat before the war ended in Europe

Stats
- No longer build other subs type in SP 1944 [Makes much sense because only this one was built in 1944]
- Attack Dmg: [4]
- Anti-aircraft: 2 (AA was improved)
- Convoy Damage:  2x D6
- Build Cost: 5+5 (i read for the material they used for all new subs otherwise 5100 tanks could have been built)
- [Max Build 4] This production line proved to be quite effective, in 1944, a monthly outlet of 30 type XXI and 8 type XXIII was reported.
- +2 DRM for ASW types? (Convoy,Fleet)
- Hunter-Killers only hit on a "1"
- Doesn't need to go back into harbor (As it had supplies for 3/4 year, and by that time the war ends)

What do you guys think?

IF interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXkpyt5Ym4k

http://tonnel-ufo.ru/eanglish/weapon/submarines-type-xxi-type-xxiii.php

https://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1404/99/1404991382485.pdf

[John D.]

No harbor - not even for more torpedoes?

[Darkman]

Well John you are right.

 Of course not for ammunition :-)

- So we have to cancel that idea out.
- Saying it can do it when not fireing. (Give Uboats a out of supply marker when shoot)
- Increasing it's strategic attack range.


Otherwise what would you think about including it?

I think that solution overall would be nicer.
Because SP 1944 until end of war no other uboats types were build.   

[John D.]

Up to Mark- but don't let us stop you from customizing 

[Darkman]

Stats
- No longer build other sub type in Winter 1943-1944 (I just saw the game turns have time dates)
- Attack Dmg: [4]
- Anti-aircraft: 2 (optional)
- Convoy Damage:  2x D6
- Build Cost: 5+5
- [Max Build 4]
-  1 Reroll on every ASW attempt or +2 DRM on Convoy & Fleet ASW Table
- Hunter-Killers only hit on a "1"

Rule change suggest for all submarines:  
Give submarines an out of supply token after doing an attack
They can remove it by moving back to an harbor or merchant raider in the non combat phase

[John D.]

Ok - currently all surface combat ships and subs must return to a friendly port (or merchant raider)in the non com phase.

[Darkman]

Well after watching on Tv documentation about Sub warfare  that no U.S uboat in WW2 was longer on mission than 84 days and i think Germans for around 108 days the existing rule is working good.

My Final Suggested Stats for the TYPE XXI
Stats
- No longer build other sub type in Winter 1943-1944
- Attack Dmg: [4]
- Convoy Damage:  2x D6
- Build Cost: 5+5
- [Max Build 4]
-  +2 DRM on Convoy & Fleet ASW Table
- Hunter-Killers only hit on a "1"

[John D.]

These sound really scary...

[Darkman]

Well they would have been very,very scary i think.
But luckily the allies did heavy bombing missions to delay it.

I would be happy if this ship comes to live into this game in any way.

Historically it came too late yes. When these ships were ready, Germany had not enough oil & Uboat trained manpower to start another offensive in the atlantic. Surely this submarines couldn't win the war against the allies, but delaying it further.

But the Germans decided to give the V-weapons priority, but since this game give you some sort of option so you could go another way & trying to prevent strategic bombing.

Surely we could think about the stats or max builds. But they did produce around 30-40 each month.

In the end you guys have to decide if you want another "wonder weapon" :-)
I just came up with this because in the game yet we only have 1 submarine type with 4 maxbuilds for the whole war, while at 1944 the kriegsmarine focused and built only this type.

Feel free to tune it

[John D.]

Sounds like a fun option. by 1944 - Germans usually are not building subs anyways - but having the option  is cool

[Darkman]

@Mark
What do you say ?

[Mark]

OK - circling back to the Type XXI Uboat discussion.

We could add it as another German unit, but I think the stats are maybe a little too powerful.

No longer build other sub type in Winter 1943-1944 (I just saw the game turns have time dates)
- Attack Dmg: [3] (more effective)
- Anti-aircraft: 1 (more effective)
- Convoy Damage:  2x D6 - seems hefty.  They could fire more torpedoes that the older subs and get into position much faster. . . I could maybe live with 2d6
- Build Cost: 5+5 (sounds good)
- [Max Build 4]
-  1 Reroll on every ASW attempt or +2 DRM on Convoy & Fleet ASW Table
- Hunter-Killers only hit on a "1"    - Maybe we make this that all ASW and hunter killer attacks receive a +1 DRM penalty instead?

[Darkman]

Hey Mark! Thanks for looking at it.

Summary:

- Attack Dmg  [3] or [4] - I can live with both of it.
- Anti Aircraft: [1] -  I  left it out in the last post because i think this type wouldn't fight against planes..
                              it could stay so long under water.. with a value of 1 you can't kill planes anyways.
                               If we would give it a 2 , then the other subs types should get a value of 1.
- Convoy Damage: 2x D6  the only little reason to think about building Subs in 1944 yeah!
- Build Costs 5+5
- Max Build 4
-  ASW & HK .. yeah i like simplicy but i think in this case it is a little difficult.. having a +2 DRM to HK makes it impossible for them to hunt it at all which i wouldn't like for the allies.
  But it's hull had a special anti radar coding to make detection almost impossible so i gave the asw a +2 DRM, to reflect that a little.