Author Topic: Yamato battleship  (Read 9730 times)

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Bobsalt

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Yamato battleship
« on: April 23, 2008, 02:37:47 AM »
I haven't been able to find this anywhere, so I'll ask here:

Does the Yamato battleship count as a battleship against Japan's build limit? My assumption is yes, it does because the Yamato is, indeed, a battleship; in addition, in real life building the Yamato and Musashi were extremely resource- and labor-intensive. One of the guys in our current game disputes this because it isn't specifically spelled out in the rules. A ruling please?
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John D.

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Re: Yamato battleship
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2008, 03:23:31 AM »
We have played it that it does count toward builds.

John

Bobsalt

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Re: Yamato battleship
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2008, 05:17:08 AM »
This isn’t related to the Yamato, but it does involve naval builds. What is the reasoning for the cost for light carriers? At 15 points, we’ve found that they aren’t cost effective – it’s much better to spend the additional turn and five points to get the additional aircraft capacity (and for the US, extra point of damage). Historically, the US built more CVL’s/CVE’s than full-size carriers; in the game the only time any of us build a light carrier is when we want the extra deck and are at the build limit for regular CV’s, and/or have the economic points to burn. Japan usually builds one before Pearl Harbor just to get the deck; after that it’s CV’s or nothing. The US usually never builds any at all.

Was any thought given to making them 4/4/4? At 60% of the cost of a CV that’s probably still too high, but it makes them a little more cost-effective. Also, it seems the build limits for them should be higher. I can see Japan being limited due to their chronic overall lack of resources, but the US could (and did) turn them out like crazy.
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John D.

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Re: Yamato battleship
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2008, 10:02:22 AM »
Agreed and addressed in the newer rules

John

RandR

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Re: Yamato battleship
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2008, 04:31:37 PM »
Besides the real world costs to build were much less in time & money for the escort carriers, the US needed deck space in a hurry. Until Midway, the attrition rate for US carriers in the Pacific WAS a major worry!  The US Navy still needed to support its role in: anti-submarine/convoy duties--don't need many aircraft to make life miserable for subs,  the island hopping air/ground support roles where you needed air support with quick combat turn-around times, and to ferry aircraft/spare aircraft.  Remember Enterprise was ferrying aircraft toWake when Pearl Harbor was attacked.

Bobsalt

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Re: Yamato battleship
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2008, 03:13:54 AM »
Agreed and addressed in the newer rules

John
Thanks John!

Just to clarify - when you speak of the newer rules are you talking about an update for the current game or what will be in the new game? If it's an update, will we see this in the near future?
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John D.

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Re: Yamato battleship
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2008, 06:13:10 AM »
Yes - The plan is to update eveything. Meanwhile keep suggestions coming! They are very helpful.

John

qxxx

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Re: Yamato battleship
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2009, 07:49:27 AM »
I revised the Japaneese Fleet Carriers to carry 3 aircraft. This makes them worth building since they are destroyed on one hit.

Mark

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Re: Yamato battleship
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2009, 08:28:37 PM »
I would instead maybe make them a little cheaper than to carry 3 planes - but your call, certainly.  Japanese carriers didn't really carry more planes that US carriers - but agree the cost / return needs some attention.


qxxx

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Re: Yamato battleship
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2009, 02:56:04 AM »
With the ability to carry 3 aircraft on a Japaneese Fleet Carrier, it gives it a very good reason to build at the printed cost, besides the Japaneese Carriers carried more planes 80-90 as opposed the the US 60-70

qxxx

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Re: Yamato battleship
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2009, 02:33:55 AM »
In reply to the Yamato

It is a seperate line item
It attacks before the battleship, it costs 6 unlike a battleship, and it has its own row on the National build sheet with build limits.

I will treat it as another build line in my games

ken

Bobsalt

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Re: Yamato battleship
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2009, 08:39:15 AM »
With the ability to carry 3 aircraft on a Japaneese Fleet Carrier, it gives it a very good reason to build at the printed cost, besides the Japaneese Carriers carried more planes 80-90 as opposed the the US 60-70
Actually, you pretty much have it backwards.  Ship-for-ship US CV’s carried more aircraft than their Japanese counterparts – in most cases, considerably more aircraft. Japanese CV’s and their nominal complements:

Shokaku 84
Zuikaku 84
Akagi  91
Kaga 90
Hiryu 73
Soryu 71
Taiho 60
Hiyo 53
Junyo 53
Shinano 45-55
Unryu 65

This data is from www.combinedfleet.com, which is about as solid a source as you’ll ever find. Note that the aircraft totals above include spares. The Kaga, for example, actually only operated 72 planes; the rest were spares in various states of disassembly to replace combat losses.

Compare that to the aircraft capacities of the US carriers:

Essex-class 90-100
Yorktown-class 90
Lexington-class 91

Only 4 of the pre-war Japanese carriers had an air group equaling or approaching the size of those on US CV’s; the later war builds carried considerably fewer planes than US CV’s.  Compounding the issue is the fact that Japanese logistics weren’t anywhere near as good as the US’s. Japanese carriers frequently operated below their organizational strength due to shortages of aircraft and pilots. This was a factor at Midway (along with many other things of course). The point is made in the book “Shattered Sword” that going into the battle, in spite of Japan having one more CV than the US the two sides were about equal in the number of carrier planes they could deploy.

As to making them cheaper than the US carriers – I was originally in that camp. After playing the game the past couple of years I changed my mind, for two reasons.

It took about the same resources for each country to build each of their CV’s. However, Japanese carriers were never as well-built as US CV’s. Their vital areas were not as well protected, their damage control procedures were not as good, and AA protection wasn’t as good. As an example, the US used steel piping for their water mains for firefighting; the Japanese used cast iron which was cheaper. When US carriers took a hit they usually kept water pressure – the Japanese learned the hard way that the shock from a bomb hit tended to shatter their cast iron water mains.  As I said, though, it cost Japan the same amount of resources to build lesser designs as it did the US.  This leads me to the next point…

As US tension levels increase, Japan usually begins to feel the economic pressure in the game, just as they did historically. In my opinion, any changes made to the game should emphasize that rather than give any relief from it. Japan can already do many more things in the game than they could have historically. My experience has been that if both sides push carrier construction prior to war, they usually end up about equal in CV and aircraft strength, which is about where they were historically.

Looking at the real-life data, there isn’t any basis for giving Japanese CV’s larger air groups than the US; if anything, the opposite should be done.

If you really want an equalizer, something that’s in the advanced house rules we’re working on is that when Japan goes to war with the Western Allies their fighters get a -1 modifier to their die roll and the WA get a +1 until the WA successfully gain Advanced Air Tactics.. Every turn AFTER the turn the WA go to war with Japan they roll a D-12. Initially the WA must roll a “1” or less. The number to roll or less goes up by one each turn; additionally, the WA get a -1 modifier to the die roll for every Japanese fighter shot down by a WA fighter (this modifier carries over every turn, so shooting down three Japanese fighters would mean a permanent -3 die roll modifier). When they roll less than the required number the WA have gained AAT and Japan no longer has their combat modifier for the remainder of the game. NOTE – If trying this rule it replaces the “Pearl Harbor” rule for aircraft units – Japanese fighters do NOT get both modifiers.

The intent of this is to give the Japanese the qualitative edge they had for the opening months at war – an edge that they gradually lost through combat losses and the development of superior fighter designs by the Allies.

We have not playtested this yet – too busy painting aircraft. But comments are welcome.
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qxxx

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Re: Yamato battleship
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2009, 10:12:06 AM »
bobsalt
you are correct about the aircraft, I will change my rule of 3 planes on Japaneese carriers.               In the games where it was used it made a very good Pearl Harbor. The US fleet was completely wiped out in each game.

I still feel that playing with the tension levels and to create a more balanced game, the Japaneese should receive some considerations due to the fact the US receives a first turn (25pp) and Japan is required to keep all starting forces on the border with Russia (19pp). Increasing the production of the home islands to 3/9/3 and thus 24pp to start and dropping the Russian draw at the end of their turn are my changes to the tension levels.