Optional US Entry

[Mark]

OK, so here is my latest installment of a US Tension level and war entry optional rule based on the drawing card system.  First, take a deck of cards and take out the 2's through 8's (28 cards).  Shuffle the 2's through 8's and place them face down in the US blow-up box on the map.  The US player draws cards from this deck for each event listed below and keeps his 'hand' to himself.  Once the US players hand reaches at least 50 points, the US player can cash in 50 points worth of cards on the declare war phase of the turn and raise his tension level.  Take the 50 points of discarded cards and shuffle them back into the deck.

When the US player reached 50 points again, he can cash them in again in the same manner and raise his tension level a second time. Finally, on the third set if 50 points cashed in, the US player may declare war on the Axis.

When using this optional rule, start the Japanese home island with a production point value of 7, instead of 5 (So the Japanese start the game with 18PP).

I have modeled this out and I think this works pretty well - try it.  Depending on Axis aggression, the US entry can usually fall between Summer 1941 and Fall 1942.  Also - please let me know how you would suggest to modify this if you don't 100% agree with it.


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[Bobsalt]

This idea reminds me of the US Entry Rules for World in Flames. It’s been probably 15 years since I last played WiF, but I remember that there were specific Axis actions that triggered the US player drawing a chit, and when the total exceeded a certain number, the US could declare war. Personally, I think a system like this is much better in that it introduces some uncertainty into the game. I’ve only played two games so far, but in both games the Allied player maxed his factory builds to get into the war as soon as possible, and the Axis attacked the US on the turn the US could declare war. That’s just a little too convenient for my tastes. With an uncertain entry the Japanese player has to be a little more honest – wait too long to spring that Pearl Harbor attack and he may find it’s too late.

I’d like to see some discussion generated on this topic. Surely I can’t be the only one who thinks this is a good idea, and I’m sure with some brainstorming that there could be more ideas for events that would trigger a US card draw.

One other suggestion I’d make is that in addition to the 2’s through 8’s I’d leave in one ace (1 point) and one joker, which would be worth, say, 10 or 12. This would increase the randomness even further, though the odds of drawing one of them would be small enough that it shouldn’t throw things too out of whack.

[John D.]

I agree. We have had 2 games using the optional entry rules and they are ALOT of fun. I think Mark will be tweaking them at some point after we playtest them a few more times. 

We want to keep the game at a simpler level when introducing it to new players, that is why it is an optional rule. 

[Yoper]

The idea for the optional entry rules came from my complaints concerning the "scripted" entry of the USSR and the US.

In my opinion, the base game system is too historically based.  As such I have commented on the need to have a system that more accurately reflected what was happening in the game.

While my group hasn't had a chance to play with the optional rules yet, I think that it has merit.

I do think that there are still problems though. 

In the game we just played with Mark and John last weekend, I didn't max out the factory build for the US, but the Japanese were still forced to attack.  Even though it happened a turn later than usual, it still had to happen based on the scoring system that is used in the game.  The Axis needed to have their base minimum and were perilously close.  It also brought up the discussion of whether the Japanese needs to be at war with the WA for their VPs to count towards the minimum VP score.

Craig

[Mark]

Hey Bob - thanks for chipping in on this subject.  We have been play testing these optional US entry rules and really like the concept.  It introduces a really fun element to the game and gives both the US and the Japanese a number of new things to think about and strategies.

I am open to expanding the number of cards to include a 1 and a joker - I think we should run the math to make sure it can't throw the game too much.  From our experience so far - really cautious Axis play can usually get them to delay war with the US until Summer 1942 - but the cautious naval and factory builds - along with the two extra turns of US builds before war seem to balance themselves out pretty well in how the war develops in the Pacific.

Yoper - I think since the Japanese are at war with China - that their 10VPs count toward the Axis 28 minimum beginning in Sping 1942.  But, that still means the Germans/Italians need to have and hold 18 - which may make it risky to not have the Japanese in the war by Spring 1942

cheers,
Mark

[Yoper]

We have been playing a new game the last two sessions. 

We are using both the US and the USSR Optional Entry Rules along with the alternate Italian Morale rules (Our adjusted version that we all played with when you came out plus a couple of clarifications that Dan added on.)

I have comments/questions concerning the US and the USSR card draw charts.

US Tension Level Chart-
1) Draw 1 -  For each additional Chinese production point territory when it is captured.

Q: Is this a one time draw for each territory?  Or is it a draw for each time that a territory is taken, whether it is once, twice, or multiple times?

I ask this because of the unlikely situation where the Chinese retake a PP territory from the Japanese and then the Japanese take it a second time.

2) Draw 1 - For every game turn the Germans do 15 or more points of economic damage to Britain.

C: This needs to be changed from Germans to European Axis.  The Italian have been damaging the UK in our game and they should be included in the total.

3) Tension Level 2 - US blue line extends into the first Atlantic convoy zone, US may occupy Iceland.  US may lend lease up to 15 PPs a turn, economic sanctions vs. Japan 2d6.

Q: What kind of Naval/Air/Land movement is allowed by the US units in the Atlantic Ocean and the Eastern US?  Can units move between the European and Pacific theaters at this point?  How can units occupy Iceland if US units can't cross the blue line?  If units are allowed across the blue line to occupy Iceland, is the first movement there a tactical movement or a strategic movement?  Can US air units stationed on carriers in the first Atlantic convoy zone respond to attacks on the middle convoy zone?

USSR Tension Level Chart-
1) Meeting Tension Level 1 Requirements- Do the garrision minimums stated in the Tension Level 1 sentence supersede the garrison requirements that are part of the base rules?  Does the penalty for not meeting the garrison requirements mean that the USSR stops drawing all cards or just the one that comes from meeting the garrison requirements?

General Question-
1) Cards in a players' hand-  Is the number of cards in a players hand public knowledge? 

C: Eric wanted to know how many cards were in the USSR and the US players hands (not the actual values, just the number of cards) so that he could try to estimate the average value that the US and USSR might be holding.

Craig

[Mark]

I have answered a couple emails re: questions about the optional rules for US and Soviet entry.  Let me first say, I think they are in need of some editing and maybe some tweaking after seeing what kinds of questions have popped up and after playing them a few times.  Here are my answers (currently) to how to address these questions:

1) Draw 1 -  For each additional Chinese production point territory when it is captured.
Q: Is this a one time draw for each territory?  Or is it a draw for each time that a territory is taken, whether it is once, twice, or multiple times?

A:  I think, like triggers, it should be only one draw for each production point no matter how many times it might be taken.

2) Draw 1 - For every game turn the Germans do 15 or more points of economic damage to Britain.
C: This needs to be changed from Germans to European Axis.  The Italian have been damaging the UK in our game and they should be included in the total.

A:  Yes - it should be "European Axis" not "German"

3) Tension Level 2 - US blue line extends into the first Atlantic convoy zone, US may occupy Iceland.  US may lend lease up to 15 PPs a turn, economic sanctions vs. Japan 2d6.
Q: What kind of Naval/Air/Land movement is allowed by the US units in the Atlantic Ocean and the Eastern US?  Can units move between the European and Pacific theaters at this point?  How can units occupy Iceland if US units can't cross the blue line?  If units are allowed across the blue line to occupy Iceland, is the first movement there a tactical movement or a strategic movement?  Can US air units stationed on carriers in the first Atlantic convoy zone respond to attacks on the middle convoy zone?

A: When this tention level is reached, essentially the U.S. blue line extends to include the closest North Atlantic Convoy space and all the sea zones adjacent to the "Greenland" black territory - enabling the U.S. to move troops to Iceland if they want and allowing the US to move into the convoy zone (The Axis have to withdraw their units out of the "new" blue line sea zones on their following turn.  US units are still stuck on their respective sides of the board - i.e. units on the East Coast can not move to the West Coast.  The U.S. can not respond to German sub attacks on the other side of the "new" blue line.

 Note:  If Iceland is already Axis owned, the US can not occupy it until at war.

1) Meeting Tension Level 1 Requirements- Do the garrision minimums stated in the Tension Level 1 sentence supersede the garrison requirements that are part of the base rules?  Does the penalty for not meeting the garrison requirements mean that the USSR stops drawing all cards or just the one that comes from meeting the garrison requirements?

A:  Yes, they supersede the standard garrison rules.  The penalty means they can not draw any cards for anything.

1) Cards in a players' hand-  Is the number of cards in a players hand public knowledge? 
C: Eric wanted to know how many cards were in the USSR and the US players hands (not the actual values, just the number of cards) so that he could try to estimate the average value that the US and USSR might be holding.

A:  We have been playing that the number of cards is public knowledge.

[Yoper]

Q: What kind of Naval/Air/Land movement is allowed by the US units in the Atlantic Ocean and the Eastern US?  Can units move between the European and Pacific theaters at this point?  How can units occupy Iceland if US units can't cross the blue line?  If units are allowed across the blue line to occupy Iceland, is the first movement there a tactical movement or a strategic movement?  Can US air units stationed on carriers in the first Atlantic convoy zone respond to attacks on the middle convoy zone?

A: When this tention level is reached, essentially the U.S. blue line extends to include the closest North Atlantic Convoy space and all the sea zones adjacent to the "Greenland" black territory - enabling the U.S. to move troops to Iceland if they want and allowing the US to move into the convoy zone (The Axis have to withdraw their units out of the "new" blue line sea zones on their following turn.  US units are still stuck on their respective sides of the board - i.e. units on the East Coast can not move to the West Coast.  The U.S. can not respond to German sub attacks on the other side of the "new" blue line.

 Note:  If Iceland is already Axis owned, the US can not occupy it until at war.

This last part seems a bit screwy.  If the Germans had control of Iceland and were in supply (i.e.- they controlled sea zones that kept them in supply), to automatically have them be out of supply would seem goofy.

You could treat any axis owned sea zone like you do the Vichy France territory,  that as long as the Axis still control it, it stays theirs.  But once the WA take control of any of those zones after the blue is extended out, then the Axis can't return.

Sounds clunky, I know.  But I am just putting it out there.

I guess your way simulates the extended patrolling of the US into those waters.

Craig

[Mark]

Yoper - good call - did not think of the supply implications.  I think (in the rare circumstances that the Axis do occupy Iceland) - that your suggestion should be the way we play test this rule out.

cheers,
Mark

[Mark]

So how is the new game going?  At least give us a brief play by play even if you did not take any pictures. . . 

[Yoper]

So how is the new game going?  At least give us a brief play by play even if you did not take any pictures. . . 

I will start a new game thread over in the AAR section in the morning.

Craig

[Yoper]

Okay,  few more comments/questions.

1) There is a card draw in the US chart that states:
"Draw 2-  When the European Axis go to war with the Soviet Union"

We did not give the US two cards in our game since the USSR declared war on the European Axis, not the other way around.

2) The US Tension Level 2 allows the US to move out and defend the Western Atlantic UK Convoy.  We decided that the Germans could still attack it and that the US could defend it.  Also we allowed the German Uboats to still move around in the new extended blue line area, but they cannot go inside the old blue line area.

3) Another part of the extended blue line rule concerns who controls Iceland.  Martin moved a UK fighter to Iceland to attack Uboats.  Eric was questioning that, but I reasoned that since Denmark comes under UK control once Germany attacks it, that the Denmark territory of Iceland also comes under UK control.

[John D.]

1) Should read
Draw 2-  When the European Axis are at war with the Soviet Union - (good catch)
2) Sounds reasonable
3) This was brought up with our group. You are correct. Once Denmark is attacked, Iceland goes to the UK.

Mark will make all corrections/clarifications when he gets back from vacation.

Later
John

[Yoper]

1) As I stated in the Detroit Game #7 thread, we feel that the US card draw for this action should only be one way.

If the USSR decides to go to war first, then the US doesn't feel "concerned" enough to receive the extra cards.

Just our opinion.

Craig

[John D.]

Sure - that is understood.