Author Topic: Minors and Supply  (Read 17255 times)

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Yoper

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Minors and Supply
« on: December 12, 2006, 03:47:20 PM »
We have discussed the topic of minor countries and their supply situation now for a while.

The fact that a defending force in a country like Greece can be put out of supply even though they are defending in their own country seems a bit screwy.

And in the game we are presently playing, I made a rather daring attempt (that failed miserably!) to put all of Spain out of supply by trying to take the Pyrennes and also to control the applicable sea zones. 

The latter example seemed even more far fetched since we are talking about a very large country that should have more than enough indigenous industry and resources that it wouldn't be hindered by such a problem.  Or at least not for certain length of time based on the stockpiling certain necessities.

While I can understand the choices made concerning smaller minors like Yugoslavia and Greece when it comes to supply (and when the seasonal turn length is taken into account) but larger neutrals/minor countries like Spain, Turkey, and Sweden should have a space (their capital) that gives them a supply source.

Food for thought.

Craig


Mark

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2006, 10:05:33 AM »
Once we toyed with the idea that minors are always in supply in their home country - which worked ok - but it ultimately got rejected.  When you think about the effects of being unsupplied - essentially a -1 combat modifier - one could interpret the rule a little more broadly I think:

If your country was completely besieged and isolated by the enemy - not only would it be dificult to keep your forces going with ammo, food and fuel, but the morale implications of being in that situation should not be underestimated either.  So, to some degree, at least in my head, the out-of supply situation has impacted the population and the armies morale to fight as well as their ability to fight.  When you consider the poor performace of just about every minor's ability in the war to inflict significant casualties on the invader (with the exception of maybe Finland) I think the -1 modifier can be justified for isolated minors too help that trend along.  Even Spain - if the British managed to cut it off from the rest of the Axis, might not perform that well (they may not have performed that well anyway) - but Franco would have a really hard time if the Allies were able to isolate him from the rest of the Axis - might even be facing a coup or something - so he might have bigger fish to fry than launching an offensive somewhere  - if you get what I mean.

That being said, we could introduce rules for minors being able to supply themsleves independently if folks are not happy with the approach here. . .  :-\
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 03:34:12 PM by Mark »

Yoper

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2006, 10:45:20 AM »
I understand the basic effects that are generated by the rules as they stand.

As other have suggested, the use of a d12 system would allow you to differentiate between major power units and minor units. 

I do agree that the the rules as they stand do kind of simulate the effect of inferior equipment, etc.  that a minor would have.

Craig

Mark

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2006, 12:45:48 PM »
Sorry to mix explanations - my point was not so much the inferior quality - it is the effect of being isolated and that impact on national and military morale IMHO.

Yoper

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2006, 08:30:04 AM »
Oh, I got what you were driving at. 

I just was also pointing out another part of what you could be simulating in game.

Craig

Bobsalt

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2007, 09:03:38 AM »
We have discussed the topic of minor countries and their supply situation now for a while.

The fact that a defending force in a country like Greece can be put out of supply even though they are defending in their own country seems a bit screwy.
This is something I hadn't thought about, but it came up in our last game due to an offhand comment by one of my friends.

I think that minors should be considered in supply on the first turn they are attacked by the Axis. My reasoning is that they will otherwise be too easy to take out. In our games Poland has yet to even come close to holding out; giving them a -1 just adds insult to injury. If using the optional rules we’ve discussed that allow aircraft to block supply into an unoccupied sea zone that makes it very easy for Germany to place Denmark and Netherlands out of supply on the first turn, making them very easy pickings on turn 2.

Starting with the next turn (if they survive), I think the regular supply rules should apply. The argument could be made that a minor country would have enough supplies to fight for a few weeks; after that, they would need outside intervention in order to continue the fight.

Another approach would be to treat Madrid and Istanbul as a “flag” territory for purposes of supply. Since they are allowed a minimal build capability (1 INF per turn), this makes a certain amount of sense. Allowing all territories with that 1 INF build capability to act as a supply point would make it a little more difficult to place Britain’s Pacific territories out of supply as well.

Another way to address this would be to do what has been done in other games (notably War in Flames) and give the Axis a +1 to their die rolls on the first round of every combat on the turn they declare war against each country, similar to what’s done with Japan. Everything I’ve read indicates that supply wasn’t the biggest problem facing nations hit by the blitzkrieg – it was that they were so quickly overwhelmed, which points more to the extensive training/planning by the Axis than to supply problems by the invaded countries, and a +1 to the die roll on the first round better simulates that. That would probably require some adjustment of the initial forces of the minor nations though.
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John D.

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2007, 10:32:07 AM »
This will be addressed in the next version of the rules.

 :)

John

Mark

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2007, 03:44:54 PM »
I think it might be easier to just say that minors are always in supply in their own country? 

Bobsalt

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2007, 03:06:28 PM »
I think it might be easier to just say that minors are always in supply in their own country? 
Ah, it's nice to be un-banned... ;D

I personally like this - it's the simple way to handle it.
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Yoper

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2007, 01:23:29 AM »
I think it might be easier to just say that minors are always in supply in their own country? 
Ah, it's nice to be un-banned... ;D

I second that emotion! :-*

Craig

Bobsalt

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2007, 02:02:23 AM »
I think it might be easier to just say that minors are always in supply in their own country? 
Ah, it's nice to be un-banned... ;D

I second that emotion! :-*

Craig
Oh? Did you get banned too?

I admire your confidence in your smack talk by the way. I gave that up a long time ago. All too often after I talked smack the dice seemed to conspire against me to make sure I remained properly humble.  ;D
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John D.

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2007, 11:16:36 AM »
We deserve the smack talk. Believe me!

John

Yoper

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2007, 04:25:22 PM »
I talk all this smack because I know the real source of my power- my teammates!

Eric is one smart son-of-a-bitch and Dan is real machine when playing the USSR.

They just let me come along for the ride. 

If you take a close look at both of the match ups between the Bostonians and us, you will see that the power that I played in both games is the one that was least effective. 

I was way behind the power curve against the Japanese in first game as the US.  The best thing I did in that game was to send a lot of material to Eric's UK so as to smash the Germans.

Then in the Origins game, I was the "Churchill" that allowed the invasion of the UK Home Isles.  The only thing that saved my bacon was the fact that the Battle for the Atlantic had gone my way right from the start along with Cairo never really being threatened by the Italians.

Hell, the European Axis threw me a bone by trying to take Turkey!

I know my place.  I am that annoying lap dog that barks all he wants because he has a Rottweiler and a Pit Bull backing him up. ;)

Craig

Mark

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2007, 01:31:42 PM »
I have been humbled by the Detroit team - but I am pitting John up against Dan and Eric next time - he is our New England Pit Bull   ;D

Bobsalt

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Re: Minors and Supply
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2008, 09:18:29 AM »
Well, we had another interesting game last night. I was the Axis, Peter and Jason were the Allies.

The game started rather ominously for the Axis, losing a total of 9 infantry on the first turn’s attacks. The next turn I redeployed, and on turn three I took out Belgium. Up to this point everything was going fairly normal; unfortunately for me, things started to get weird from here.

In Jason’s redeployments for the Soviets in Winter 1939-40, he left only two units on the Turkish border. Per the rules, we rolled, and Turkey entered the Axis. Great, you think.

Actually, not so much. It set into motion the events that virtually guarantee that I will lose in the next turn or two when we resume play next week.

Because I had not yet taken out France, Turkey was immediately out of supply. England immediately pounced on them with the troops they had deployed to North Africa, and deployed most of their navy to the Med, daring the Italians to declare war. I took France out on the Summer 1940 turn, and pulled back in Turkey to Istanbul, and England took the remainder of Turkey.

Hungary, Romania, Finland, and Bulgaria came into the Axis at the end of Fall 1940 (the turn after the fall of France), but since supply determination comes after “Check for Axis Minor Allies” the Turkish troops were still out of supply. Britain built a level three airbase in Turkey, and took Istanbul. I retreated 2 surviving infantry and 2 artillery into Bulgaria.

I noticed that Peter was sending almost everything he had as Britain down there to threaten me from the south. As all of this was unfolding I started to build some transports. In winter 1940-41, I made an amphibious assault into London, and took it without taking a single casualty. As a result, Sweden rolled into the Axis.

The problem here is that with Turkey’s early entry, the Soviets hit Tension Level one. On the turn I took London, he also placed his first medium armor and fighter, so he drew nine cards that turn (first medium armor, first fighter, normal card draw for each turn, card draw for border requirements, Sweden joining Axis, Germany taking London). Spring of 1941 he was able to declare war on Germany.

Things went downhill pretty fast after that. As things stand right now (I think we’re going into the Allied half of the Summer 1941 turn), Germany has taken all of England. Russia is on the border of Germany and most likely will be in Germany at the end of his turn. England still has quite a bit in the Med directly threatening Turkey, so I have to keep some stuff there to protect the southern flank. I think Germany will be out by the end of the year.

I’m not complaining about losing. The biggest reason I’m losing is because of my invasion of England, which I know better than to do (though I do want it noted for the record that I did COMPLETELY conquer the British Isles…).

The issue I have here is the situation with Turkey. What should be a positive thing (Turkey joining the Axis) rapidly became an albatross around my neck, as the Turks basically became cannon fodder for the British; on top of that I had to commit forces to attacking the British there to protect my southern flank. After seeing all of this, Jason said something to the effect that because Turkey is out of supply if they come into the Axis before France falls that he thinks he will start attacking Turkey as the Soviets every game so as to eliminate them as a threat. This won’t be all that difficult, since with Turkey being out of supply they won’t be able to stand up to the Soviets more than a turn or two.

I think the issue of minor countries and supply needs to be revisited. John commented in September that this would be addressed in the next rules update – but that was almost 9 months ago. Is there any progress on this – or was he referring to the next version of the game?

I’m not sure what the answer to this is. While I like the idea of saying a minor country is in supply within its own territory, this does directly contradict the supply rules. This won’t normally be a problem since minor countries that are attacked generally end up being taken out the same turn they’re attacked (before they would check for supply). For Turkey, I would suggest perhaps saying that they could trace supply through Bulgaria/Romania/Hungary before those countries join the Axis, since those countries were obviously pro-Axis before they officially joined. A bit of a rules fudge, but one that’s easier to implement than making wholesale changes to how supply works.

As to the Soviets attacking Turkey right from the get-go – maybe this should be a negative card draw for the Soviets and/or the US.

Also, last night’s game generated a few rules questions (as usual).

Since minor countries have to trace supply to the Western Allies to be in supply, does this mean that the Polish forces in Eastern Poland would be out of supply in the Allied half of the first turn?

As Germany, I completely surrounded England so that England had no connection to the rest of their empire. If England can’t re-establish supply would this mean that they could only build in the home isles whatever points they still hold there and the remainder would have to be built in Canada?

When Turkey became England’s punching bag, Peter used the French infantry in Syria as part of his attacking force. When France fell, this infantry was in Turkey. We removed this infantry from the board, and since there was a British infantry in Syria we said that this territory was not Vichy, but became British. Was this correct?

Your thoughts, comments, ideas, threats, etc. are welcome,

Bob
"Peace through superior firepower"