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Rules questions from first edition / Re: Blocking Pearl Harbor (a historical nerd's insistence)
« on: May 16, 2007, 02:35:58 PM »
OK. enough.
Playing Avalon Hill games as well as the old Axis & Allies games, I began to realize that there are two main sets of players. One sees the game as exactly that...a GAME. That means utilizing the rules given seeks out the best paths and methods to win it. The other, which seem to populate these forums, are the "historical buffs" wishing to re-live history in a......game. The problem is that, these games allow for a whole set of scenarios with given parameters based on historical logistics. America was producing this much at such and such a time....Germany had this many tanks and postioned to attack at such and such a time, etc. Games allow for us to replay the main event (in this case WW2) to see if different results could occur. But here's an inherent problem that in designing these historical war games........It's 2007. yeah, big problem. Because we have the luxury of hindsight. We can calculate that since the Germans did such and such, I think the allies will do.....
So you can't keep asking the game designers to keep making rules to compensate for the occurance of events that happened. Because the more you do that....the less it becomes a game and instead turns into a REANACTMENT model set. Gotta tell ya....Play tested this game out several times. we even tested some the theories put out on this forum (which are surprisingly "historical based" strategies). You wanna know who wins??? yup. you got it. when you calculate best possible moves against best possible moves (that's gonna irk some of you, cause you think the game as endless possibilities. it does if you don't play well..er, smart), and know how to react to each move, well.....you win. not the guy who tries to "re-live" history in making his moves. they usually tend to say things like "WELL, THAT'S NOT HOW IT WENT DOWN!" "OH YEAH, THE GERMANS WOULD HAVE NEVER DONE THAT...."
just stop it. honestly. if you want to re-live history, read a book instead of playing this game. The game is BRILLIANT. but if the historical nerds keep asking for rule changes so that they can carry out historical events, then you might as well put in a DVD of your favorite war movie in and watch it, because that's all this game will be.
you all remember Axis & Allies? the beauty of that game was finding out how one move (by the russians) turned the game. that move was found by the ones who saw it as that....a game. What is the best move that Russia can do to prevent a pummeling by the Germans in THIS GAME. Oh yeah, let' not just stock pile troops. hmmmm......let's go different. let's attack and split their forces.
and so the question at hand......to blockade or not to blockade Pearl Harbor?
Folks the game makers already placed a "revision" cause you all complained that the US could block an attack. So they helped you out a little bit. but you know what? turns out that the US can still block an attack depending on where the Japanese position their fleet. yup. not cheating. using the GAME rules.
"but that prevents the attack on Pearl Harbor," the historical buffs resound. yup. it sure does. cause why?
we have the luxury of HINDSIGHT.
And furthermore, and this is a big furthermore....the US could have easily avoided the Pearl Harbor attack based on the knowledge that they had.....THEN. Smalller divisions of fleets, which totally plausible even back in the 40's could have patrolled the outer waters surrounding Pearl and could have rescued their ships from being anihilated (spelling?). True games, give you the actual abilities and facts of that period and then they let YOU DECIDE what to do. yes, the US population would not have supported a war, and hence the delayed US intervention rules. Yes, there were ships and very important ones in Pearl Harbor. But rules implemented that just let units sit there until they are destroyed is not a game element. it is a reanactment.
soooooo then.......CHILL OUT. live with it. figure out how to beat the US if Pearl Harbor is prevented. if i'm not mistakened, i think the Japanese can actually do that in the Pacific while gaining all those precious victory points. It'll be harder if the US fleet survives.
but then again, such would have been the case in .........HISTORY.
sincerely,
an admirer of the game THE STRUGGLE FOR EUROPE AND ASIA.
Playing Avalon Hill games as well as the old Axis & Allies games, I began to realize that there are two main sets of players. One sees the game as exactly that...a GAME. That means utilizing the rules given seeks out the best paths and methods to win it. The other, which seem to populate these forums, are the "historical buffs" wishing to re-live history in a......game. The problem is that, these games allow for a whole set of scenarios with given parameters based on historical logistics. America was producing this much at such and such a time....Germany had this many tanks and postioned to attack at such and such a time, etc. Games allow for us to replay the main event (in this case WW2) to see if different results could occur. But here's an inherent problem that in designing these historical war games........It's 2007. yeah, big problem. Because we have the luxury of hindsight. We can calculate that since the Germans did such and such, I think the allies will do.....
So you can't keep asking the game designers to keep making rules to compensate for the occurance of events that happened. Because the more you do that....the less it becomes a game and instead turns into a REANACTMENT model set. Gotta tell ya....Play tested this game out several times. we even tested some the theories put out on this forum (which are surprisingly "historical based" strategies). You wanna know who wins??? yup. you got it. when you calculate best possible moves against best possible moves (that's gonna irk some of you, cause you think the game as endless possibilities. it does if you don't play well..er, smart), and know how to react to each move, well.....you win. not the guy who tries to "re-live" history in making his moves. they usually tend to say things like "WELL, THAT'S NOT HOW IT WENT DOWN!" "OH YEAH, THE GERMANS WOULD HAVE NEVER DONE THAT...."
just stop it. honestly. if you want to re-live history, read a book instead of playing this game. The game is BRILLIANT. but if the historical nerds keep asking for rule changes so that they can carry out historical events, then you might as well put in a DVD of your favorite war movie in and watch it, because that's all this game will be.
you all remember Axis & Allies? the beauty of that game was finding out how one move (by the russians) turned the game. that move was found by the ones who saw it as that....a game. What is the best move that Russia can do to prevent a pummeling by the Germans in THIS GAME. Oh yeah, let' not just stock pile troops. hmmmm......let's go different. let's attack and split their forces.
and so the question at hand......to blockade or not to blockade Pearl Harbor?
Folks the game makers already placed a "revision" cause you all complained that the US could block an attack. So they helped you out a little bit. but you know what? turns out that the US can still block an attack depending on where the Japanese position their fleet. yup. not cheating. using the GAME rules.
"but that prevents the attack on Pearl Harbor," the historical buffs resound. yup. it sure does. cause why?
we have the luxury of HINDSIGHT. And furthermore, and this is a big furthermore....the US could have easily avoided the Pearl Harbor attack based on the knowledge that they had.....THEN. Smalller divisions of fleets, which totally plausible even back in the 40's could have patrolled the outer waters surrounding Pearl and could have rescued their ships from being anihilated (spelling?). True games, give you the actual abilities and facts of that period and then they let YOU DECIDE what to do. yes, the US population would not have supported a war, and hence the delayed US intervention rules. Yes, there were ships and very important ones in Pearl Harbor. But rules implemented that just let units sit there until they are destroyed is not a game element. it is a reanactment.
soooooo then.......CHILL OUT. live with it. figure out how to beat the US if Pearl Harbor is prevented. if i'm not mistakened, i think the Japanese can actually do that in the Pacific while gaining all those precious victory points. It'll be harder if the US fleet survives.
but then again, such would have been the case in .........HISTORY.
sincerely,
an admirer of the game THE STRUGGLE FOR EUROPE AND ASIA.