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WWII: Struggle for Europe____WWII: Struggle for Asia => First Edition Game => After action reports from first edition => Topic started by: Yoper on March 07, 2007, 01:25:21 AM
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Started a new game last Friday night, 03/02/07.
Eric- UK/US
Dan- USSR/France/China
Craig- Germany
Martin- Italy/Japan
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Ok - France holds strong.
Now what...
Decisions, decisions...
Will there be a big bloody battle for Paris?! :o
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Man, I don't know. . . When left with the choice of counter-attacking Burgundy with the French or defending Paris, I think I would opt for the counter-attack.
It's just not worth the risk to lose all the French on a surrender roll of a 1-2 without having the opportunity to inflict some losses on the Germans - looks like the Allies lucked out though. . .
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France is nearly impossible to defend against a well planned and executed German attack. Germany had crushed Belgium with a large armored/mech force and built a fairly large stack in the Rhineland. The French and British players decided to have the French defend Burgundy and Paris with most of their army and the British would land in Normandy. A single French infantry unit was placed into Picardy. We had seen in previous games that if the French defend heavy up front in Picardy and Burgundy, the Germans will attack one or the other and then mech into Paris.
This time Germany attacked with everything into Burgandy. The French absorbed most of the attack with the fortresses and withdrew to Paris after one round. The Germans then followed up with a mech attack with 2 Panzergrenadiers and the Luftwaffe into Picardy.
The French responded by counter attacking Picardy with 2 infantry and 2 armor units from Paris as well as most of the French and British air forces. The Allies sent in 8 fighters and the Germans could have responded with 8 of their own, but chose not to. The French armor mech moved back to Paris after liberating Picardy. The British recalled some of the BEF to Cairo to counter the Italian build-up. At the end of the Allied turn, the die roll for French capitulation was above a 2 and the French remained in the fight.
I think the die roll for French capitulation is the most important single die roll in the game. Lets face it, this die roll not only removes all French units from the map, but sets up the pro-Axis Vichy units/territories and activates the Axis Minors (Rumania, Hungary, Bulgaria and Finland). I would like to see a moral type system like the one developed for Italian surrender to be developed for France. It would consist not only of territories that the Axis have captured in France, but also the amount of French versus Axis casualties, amount of BEF aid in France, whether Italy has declared war and any other factors that would affect the French moral. Then when a certain moral point threshold is crossed, France capitulates.
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We are using the following optional rules for this game:
1) We are, for the first time, limiting the tactical range of aircraft (2 for fighters and 3 for bombers). Although this is now a standard rule, we had been allowing in all of our previous games for fighters to move out 3 spaces to attack and then land with their last movement point, for example.
2) The optional Italian surrender rules.
3) Airbases.
4) Allied surface ships do not block Japanese naval movement during the turn that Japan has surprise over the Western Allies. The anti-block Pearl Harbor rule.
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Hi Eric,
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that you guys will have a nice long game this time - we will see. . .
I think you defended France just about the best it can be defended this time around. The only thing I was saying above is given the current Fall of France rules (with the die roll) I would have thrown the whole French Army against Burgandy to try and take as many Germans down with me that I can since their is a chance of surrender - but I have seen it played both ways (actually, I think john usually takes the path that you did - sit tight and make them attack you and play the odds) - I just always count on luck going against me. . .
Let me think about ideas on an alternative French surrender - but France really is going to fall one of two turns- either Spring or Summer with decent play. If they don't fall until Autumn it is a lot of ground for the Germans to make up (though I have seen them win a game or two with the French hanging in until Autumn). So its a toss up whether we need to create a more sophisticated French surrender rule to determine Spring or Summer beyond what we have - but I hear you. I think our original playtesting group was more into the drama around these die-rolls - that you never knew for sure what was going to happen.
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As the Germans (having never really played them as my true original country), I have made two small blunders so far.
The first was to not place at least one of my built fighters at the end of the 4/39 turn in the Ruhr to protect my Baltic fleet from air attack. I was looking at the air units in France and didn't proper assess the use of the UK bomber in an attack on my fleet from the Home Islands. Which means that Eric saw the opportunity to sink my transport, eliminating any amphib threat to the England and Norway.
The second was to attack Picardy with the two mech infantry effectively throwing them away. I somehow had it in my head that taking the territory would cause the France surrender roll to be 3 out of 6, but I forgot that the roll is done at the end of the Allies turn, not the Axis. ::) I wasted those units instead of getting them into position for the next attack.
Craig
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May all of your mistakes be so minor! I think overall it looks like a pretty well played game by both sides so far.
I think you will discover that the air range and airbase rules will add a lot to the game in Asia Pacific and North Africa.
Let me know what you think of the Italian surrender rules.
I think, Eric, that your Pearl Harbor rules are a better alternative than what I put in the last edition of the rulebook - I think I will have to change this back to your suggestion for the basic game.
Mark
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Eric,
Toying with a couple French ideas:
Maybe something as simple as saying the French surrender when the Axis occupy 3 French territories and Paris counts as two would do the trick. With good Axis play, you could still knock the French out in Spring - but with good allied play you might keep them in until Summer or Autumn.
Mark
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Yoper - as Germany, the ball is in your court to get Detroit Game #6 to 1945 - can you do it?
Bets are being placed out here in New England. . .
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Let me post the pics from last Friday.
I think that you will be able to collect the bets soon after that. :'(
Craig
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Great pics - and it looks like it could be a good game. It is within the Axis' power to still win or make it a close game that does not get decided until 1944 or 45. I've seen the Axis in worse shape in Spring of 1941 and comeback. You have taken some pretty tough hits though - losing a Jap carrier to the Flying Tigers is maybe the most significant. . .
Its time for the Axis to kick it up a notch though or you will die an early death instead of in your bunker in 1945! A couple observations (since you are worried about Axis longevity):
Italy MUST declare war and get into the conflict - keeping them out is going to hurt you more than help you. They should have gotten into the war 2 turns ago - this is going to hurt. Declare war and get their fleet in the Sicilian straights. Fly as many German planes as you need to Med to scare the British senseless.
Move about 1/2 the stuff that is in Germany and France to Italy and the Med. Don't give up on North Africa completely - it looks like you are writing it off. (Denmark, Holland, Belgium and Picardy are not threatened at all this turn - even if you took only 4-5 guys from there you could put them to better use somewhere else for example).
subs are a luxury item in your current status: Germany needs to be maxing out on Infantry, fighters, tanks, panzergrenadiers and Stukas if you are going to beat the Russians back to a reasonable degree and defend Italy and France. I would not be spending too many production points on forts at this stage - unless they were in North Africa or Italy - fort that guy down in Tunisia and move 4-5 more Italians in then move a bunch of Germans to Italy from France and Germany.
Make sure your Japanese colleague takes and holds as many VPs as he can quickly - max his fighters, infantry and transports (or destroyers) so he can seize everything he can in the first couple turns.
Take advantage of the Russian redeployment to take all the territory in the middle and then rail more reinforcements to Romania.
Germany is still in the driver's seat for 3-4 more turns - don't let the British push you around. You must outnumber the Brits in airpower - go after them down in the Med. I don't think you have the luxury to just let planes sit idle in France - you got to put more stuff to work for you.
and. . .Congratulations! you are the first General on the site - I guess I need to salute you before making this post. . .
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Axis:
You actually look like you are still in good shape to move into Russia. You may need to look at out-manuvering them more than head on clashes. You want to force them to attack you. Conserve your resources! Defenders have the advantage if numbers are fairly even.
Remember 88s are nice to have in Russia just in case you need to reposition the Luftwaffe out of Russia to respond to a threat elsewhere....
John
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Mark-
Great pics - and it looks like it could be a good game. It is within the Axis' power to still win or make it a close game that does not get decided until 1944 or 45. I've seen the Axis in worse shape in Spring of 1941 and comeback. You have taken some pretty tough hits though - losing a Jap carrier to the Flying Tigers is maybe the most significant. . .
Its time for the Axis to kick it up a notch though or you will die an early death instead of in your bunker in 1945! A couple observations (since you are worried about Axis longevity):
Italy MUST declare war and get into the conflict - keeping them out is going to hurt you more than help you. They should have gotten into the war 2 turns ago - this is going to hurt. Declare war and get their fleet in the Sicilian straights. Fly as many German planes as you need to Med to scare the British senseless.
I disagree. There was never a point at which it was advantageous to bring the Italians in. The UK always had their fleet in a postion to severely punish the Italians. Now bringing them in would open up those areas to UK exploitation, drawing off German resources that it doesn’t have. It will be up to Martin to make the final decision concerning Italy, but it will not make much difference to the cause, IMO.
As for flying German fighters anywhere to scare the UK, I don’t have any German fighters left after my second attack on Picardy. The air-to-air combat was six German fighters against five UK and three French fighters. The first (and only) round of combat saw three hits against the WA but six hits against the Germans! The Luftwaffe was no more.
Move about 1/2 the stuff that is in Germany and France to Italy and the Med. Don't give up on North Africa completely - it looks like you are writing it off. (Denmark, Holland, Belgium and Picardy are not threatened at all this turn - even if you took only 4-5 guys from there you could put them to better use somewhere else for example).
The “stuff” in France and Germany was there to deal with the threat of a UK amphibious assault. Yes, he has shifted those transports to the Med, but if the Italians don’t come in, then it is a dead end for the UK.
Subs are a luxury item in your current status: Germany needs to be maxing out on Infantry, fighters, tanks, panzergrenadiers and Stukas if you are going to beat the Russians back to a reasonable degree and defend Italy and France. I would not be spending too many production points on forts at this stage - unless they were in North Africa or Italy - fort that guy down in Tunisia and move 4-5 more Italians in then move a bunch of Germans to Italy from France and Germany.
The first blow to a concerted effort against the UK was the loss of my u-boat fleet in one turn. I am trying to slowly to rebuild it, but I do understand that the window is closing on the time for it to be effective.
Make sure your Japanese colleague takes and holds as many VPs as he can quickly - max his fighters, infantry and transports (or destroyers) so he can seize everything he can in the first couple turns.
This is something that is totally out of my hands. Besides some general counseling on my part, but I am leaving him to his own devices. I am busy enough with my own problems that I didn’t even have a chance to see what was going on in his theater, so I didn’t see his CV hanging out with no fighters in the area to cover it. He has to learn somehow, I sure am!
Take advantage of the Russian redeployment to take all the territory in the middle and then rail more reinforcements to Romania.
I would rather not go after the USSR at all, but because of the game mechanism allowing him to declare once the factories are in, I will have to attack if for no other reason than to try to gain some income. I have only gotten into the 60’s for PPs the last two turns. The UK has had as much as I have for most of the game and neutral USSR was not far behind.
Germany is still in the driver's seat for 3-4 more turns - don't let the British push you around.
I’m not. It was the damn French that were gumming up the works!
You must outnumber the Brits in airpower
See comments above concerning Luftwaffe.
go after them down in the Med. I don't think you have the luxury to just let planes sit idle in France - you got to put more stuff to work for you.
With what? I am not left with much with which to make a stand. And definitely not in North Africa! I would rather keep what I have left in France and in Poland.
And. . .Congratulations! You are the first General on the site - I guess I need to salute you before making this post. . .
That’s nice, I guess. I can talk about the game and post our pictures. That’s not much of an accomplishment. I am currently revising my personal ranking down into the 5.5-5.7 range with thoughts of going lower.
Just wait, things will probably get worst. :'(
John-
Axis:
You actually look like you are still in good shape to move into Russia. You may need to look at out-maneuvering them more than head on clashes. You want to force them to attack you. Conserve your resources! Defenders have the advantage if numbers are fairly even.
I will probably raid across the frontier looking for PPs but I can’t see much long-term success with a USSR getting its full production amount.
Remember 88s are nice to have in Russia just in case you need to reposition the Luftwaffe out of Russia to respond to a threat elsewhere....
You have to HAVE a Luftwaffe to reposition for this piece of advice to really mean something. ;)
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Hey, just trying to help ;)
Actually, I really wish I could jump in and help play the Germans! I love being the underdog. . .I would fight it out all the way to the Reichstag. . .
At least you discovered the game is not weighted to the Axis to win ;D
Looking forward to playing on the 20th!
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No, it's not weighed for the Axis.
It weighed against anyone who plays opposite Eric! :o
My only win so far was when I was on his team.
Don't worry, I am going to drag this one out as much as possible to see how far I can get it to go.
Craig
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Can no one stop Eric!? He is a wargaming machine! ;D 8)
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Hey! I had nothing to do with Germany's plight in the current game. Dan, playing the French High Command, deserves all the credit. His strategy of making Germany fight their way into Burgundy, roll high enough to keep the French in the fight through the spring and summer of 40 and the strong defense of Paris in the autumn of 40 that resulted in very high German casualties has put the Allies in the drivers seat.
Vive la France!
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I am writting a simulation of the first 7 turns of the game as if I were playing all the major powers. The purpose is to create an alternate summer 1941 scenario. The issue that I saw with the current 41 scenario is that Soviet forces nearly match those of Germany while the Soviet Union is outproducing Germany. Basically, I don't think Germany has a chance! They will quickly hit a red wall and then be forced back to Berlin. That is what happened when we tried the 41 scenario. I am thinking that a balanced 41 start could get our group into the later stages of the war.
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The 1941 scenario was built by simulating out the first 7 turns - so I'll be interested if you get different results.
Mark
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Hey - one thing I noticed from the early pictures of your game is that you had Finland, Latvia and Lithuania out of supply when the Russians attacked them. I don't think this is correct - per the rules:
"If the Soviet Union declares war on a neutral, it immediately becomes an Axis minor ally and the German player places, controls and supplies German units in the neutral in the same manner as the British player would in the rules discussed above."
We have never played that these states are out of supply. Not that it makes a big dfference, but. if this is confusing for those neutrals attacked by Russia, I can try and make it more clear in the rules.
mark
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Ah, I see that now under the neutrals section of the "National and Special Rules" area.
At first I was looking under the USSR section, which doesn't make that distinction.
I can't really remember how we handled it before, but it does seem that we had the German player rolling for those countries and that they weren't out of supply.
I bet if you went back to our other games, you would find that we actually did it right in those games.
Good catch! I cry foul right now! That probably made all the difference in the world as to how my fortunes have fallen as Germany. We must go back and reset the game. I demand justice! In the name of all that is right and Lithuanian, I will have satisfaction. ;D
I am actually one-quarter Lithuanian from my paternal grandmother, so this really bothers me. ;)
Craig
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. . .already ranting in his bunker - and it is only 1941. . . . ;D
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It's my bunker and I'll cry if I want to! :'( :P ;)
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We played one more night, but the writing was on the wall.
I will post the pics when I can.
My wife is hosting a St. Patty's party tonight so it probably won't be until tomorrow morning. Even that will depend on how good a party it is. ;) ;D
Craig
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I was unable to get past France in a reasonable manner which then put the German's behind the eight ball.
The narrow window of opportunity for any kind of realistic German activity later on against the USSR was missed because of the valiant efforts of the French.
The automatic entry of the USSR by the summer of 1941 based on a historical events rather than game play sucks!
Do the optional rules make things better? I don't know. I have gone through the system once with a mock progression, but I have not seen it in action in a real game. Nor have I gone over the US system at all.
The French need a more realistic system too. But I haven't given it much thought though.
All told, it is damn frustrating to have all these things that combine to create a "razor's edge" that must be walked to get out of the early game bottleneck that has seen almost every one of our games take a hard turn to one side or the other.
Was competence of the player a contributing factor? Yes. I made choices that I think aren't bad ones, but they definitely seem not to be optimal, as the game now stands.
Craig
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Good pictures Yoper - not sure what to tell you except that you should be on Eric's side next ;) and I'm looking forward to playing in April. ;D
I know I am biased, but you got outplayed in France and delaying the Italian entry as long as you did compounded the defeat in the battle for France.
I think the Soviet entry works well (the optional rule works even a bit better - though in playtesting we have tweaked the optional rule a bit more).
Actually, if anything, a German disaster in France would probably propel an earlier Soviet entry as Stalin would want a piece of the spoils and not want Central Europe to go entirely capitalist. So, if anything, a real "event driven" Soviet entry would have them declaring war earlier rather than later - so be happy. . .
We can play around with ideas on a French defeat, but after dozens of games the current system seems to work pretty well. I know there are different ways of doing this - but not sure they would really alter the game that much. If you make France a push-over, you might as well not play the 1939 game and just play the 1941 scenario.
Anyway, ::) One of the purposes of this forum is to debate the rules and brainstorm improvements. For example, I think you guys really got the ball rolling on optional entry rules for the US and Russia - which we enjoy playing with a lot. Also, I like your revised Italian morale table that you emailed me better than the one that is currently in the optional rules of the rulebook. So, the game will never be perfect and there will always be room for improvements and new ideas. Don't slam the mechanics too much though - they have stood up pretty well over the years.
Maybe you guys can get in one more 'practice game' before we make it out to play for the trophy
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Good pictures Yoper - not sure what to tell you except that you should be on Eric's side next ;) and I'm looking forward to playing in April. ;D
I know I am biased, but you got outplayed in France and delaying the Italian entry as long as you did compounded the defeat in the battle for France.
I got distracted when I was writing my last post. I forgot to put in my statement that you could save any Italian comments. ::)
There was never any good time to bring in the Italians. It wouldn't have saved my bacon and would have created its own set of problems. :'(
I think the Soviet entry works well (the optional rule works even a bit better - though in playtesting we have tweaked the optional rule a bit more).
Actually, if anything, a German disaster in France would probably propel an earlier Soviet entry as Stalin would want a piece of the spoils and not want Central Europe to go entirely capitalist. So, if anything, a real "event driven" Soviet entry would have them declaring war earlier rather than later - so be happy. . .
And my opinion is that the USSR wasn't ready to go anywhere, even in mid 1941. So any openings that came about earlier based on German slip ups wouldn't have been something that they could have seized upon.
We can play around with ideas on a French defeat, but after dozens of games the current system seems to work pretty well. I know there are different ways of doing this - but not sure they would really alter the game that much. If you make France a push-over, you might as well not play the 1939 game and just play the 1941 scenario.
I am not talking about making France a push over. I am talking about building into the system some flexibility for the extended presence of France. If they stay around longer, then there should be a related pushing back of hostilities with others- like the US and the USSR.
Events should be driven by what is happening on the game board, not on the production chart (or the history book).
Anyway, ::) One of the purposes of this forum is to debate the rules and brainstorm improvements. For example, I think you guys really got the ball rolling on optional entry rules for the US and Russia - which we enjoy playing with a lot. Also, I like your revised Italian morale table that you emailed me better than the one that is currently in the optional rules of the rulebook. So, the game will never be perfect and there will always be room for improvements and new ideas. Don't slam the mechanics too much though - they have stood up pretty well over the years.
I don't know how you can say that the mechanics of the early war play out have stood up pretty well. Yes, we have a limited number of games in and our choices have left somethings to be desired, but there is definitely a harsh learning curve that we have come across.
You yourself in your latest game AAR had an early game blow up and had to start over. That is because of the unforgiving nature of the France situation. If they don't fold early, then Germany is never going to make the arbritrary Barbarossa deadline.
I love the game, but that doesn't mean I don't think that there are flaws.
Either your gameplay differs enough from our that the problems don't surface in your games and they do in ours or you accept a certain amount of issues and just deal with them.
Maybe you guys can get in one more 'practice game' before we make it out to play for the trophy
My schedule leading up to the "Weekend of Destruction" is mostly full of other events which means we aren't going to see another game before you show.
I am looking forward to a grand meeting of the minds and seeing if you can somehow assuage my fears. ;D
Craig
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We will arrive with open arms and bearing gifts! ;D
John ;)