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WWII: Struggle for Europe____WWII: Struggle for Asia => Game Design => Topic started by: Darkman on August 07, 2014, 07:14:54 AM
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Hello guys,
i have to bring that up.
Why the german medium tank production is reduced (from 4 to 3) on the current chart while the history production list , tell us a whole different story.
Shouldn't the medium tank production get increased from year to year?
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_armored_fighting_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II
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Yup agree to the German tank production chart - and we referenced it when coming up with maximum builds.
A couple of caveats to keep in mind:
1) maximum builds do not equal total production - though what was produced can be used as a reference, early war German production probably did not 'max out' their build potential. i.e. Just because the Germans can build 4 tank units does not mean they did build 4 tank units.
2) a miniature represents a couple armored divisions, not a specific type of tank. i.e. A 1944 SS panzer division included a lot of PZKW IVs - not just tiger or panther tanks - though we choose a tiger tank miniature to represent the unit.
3) Those production figures also include assault guns and tank destroyers built on a pzkw III, IV, V chasis.
4) I think it is difficult to draw a direct correlation to number of tanks built to number of panzer divisions built. A lot of production would go into existing divisions to fill out losses (that are not severe enough to constitute the elimination of a unit) as well as other breakdowns and losses outside of combat.
When you look at total tank/assault gun maximum builds in the game - they go from 4 in the early game to 9 (i think) in the later game - which has a similar arc in terms of production totals in the table attached.
Does that make sense?
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Ok understood :-)
One thing i seen an issue is the max build decrease in 39-41 from 4 to 3 and the tank setup in 39(7) and the tank setup in 41 (13 +1 stug)
Do you guys loose no tanks from 39 to 41 in french campaign ? :)
Thinking about i would say.. the 39 intial setup needs some light panzer\or stug divisions (1-2) to fill the gap or the 41 Setup is too high with the current max builds.
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A Stug at start would make me happy 8)
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Yeah let's do it :)
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Agree with the observation of the delta between 1939 at start + max builds and the relationship to the 1941 set-up. Very hard to close the math without maximum builds and vey few losses.
Rather than making changes to the 1939 at start forces, I think it may make more sense to change the 41 German at start forces. I think I would prefer to take a couple of panzer units out of the 1941 set-up and replace them with an additional ss pzgr unit and 1-2 stug units instead.
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2 Stugs and SS gren replacing armor units would make total sense...
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Actually what i had the main problem with is the reduction of armor max build units from 5 to 4 (including the stug)
While i normally would say this reduction is fine & correct.. the allied Player \ players can use a nasty strategy to inflict maximum damage to armor units in early game.
When attacking you can't sacrifire 88mm or anti tank units so you always take the stug to die first and then the armor units.
Having not some units to sacrifire & a reduced max tank build can be really hard for the long run.
Having a stug in 1939 setup gives you at least 1-2 units for the french campaign that you can use against such strategy.
For the 1941 Scenario:
I can only say i played 2 matches yet.
I think it may be a little harder than 1939 scenario for the axis.
So i would suggest:
1939: + 1 Stug
1941: -2 Tank, +1 Stug, +1 SS gren [updated]
Tell me what you think :)
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I like it - Maybe -2 tanks for 1941...
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Looking at the production table it might be also -2 yeah.. but it hurts ;-)
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War is Hell.
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The struggle I have with this is that I don't think the Germans really had STuG / assault gun units really in 1939. They came about later - mainly for the invasion of Russia I think.
I'd rather not make any changes to the 39 start, take 2 tanks out of the 41 start and add 1 ss pzgr and 1 more STuG.
Mark
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true mark 8) but rather then removing them SP 1942 we should introduce the Stug III (around 10000) & Stug IV ( 1300 ) building in masses ( not jagdpanzer )
around 1300 StuH 42 were also build as artillery support but i count them to the upcoming mechanized artillery :D
suggest
keep max 1 build until SP 43- 45 around 8500 were built
From then
Max Build 2 ?
Same stats as the old ?
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I would love to keep Stugs in for the whole game :)
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yeah me too .. The german tank Production is only 8 not 9 @ 42 . So keeping the stug in and increasing it up to 2 at a specific turn.. Gives you options. You can't afford everything anyways
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yeah - no change to StuG production - just don't want to start the Germans with one.
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yeah - no change to StuG production - just don't want to start the Germans with one.
What do you mean with "no change to StuG production " ? Just wondering because i don'T understand the answer *grin*
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well - maybe I did not understand the comments above - I only meant that I would not change STuG production - so they can be built from the beginning of the game, but the Germans would not start with one.
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Can they be built throughout the entire game?
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Ok sorry Mark maybe i try to write it more understandable.
What i wanted to point out is that Stugs were pretty common in 1943-1945
So i wanted to propose to change the production table.
From 1939 - 1942 = Max Build 1
And then from 1942 (like all other increases) or later (1943-1945) an increase max build of 2.
So Stugs stay for the whole game.
I hope this is more understandable :)
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The intent of the Jagpanzer unit was to capture everything in this category (later war STGIII and STG IV as well as Hetzers, Jagdpanthers, Jagdtigers, Elefants, etc.) - all of these units are captured by the 4-7 jagdpanzer unit. The early war assault gun 4-4 units (short barreled anti-infantry assault guns) are replaced by the longer barrelled, largely anti-tank version of the assault gun.
So - I don't think the 4-4 should be continued after 42, instead, StuGs are up-gunned and up-armored to 4-7s later in the game.
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Well ok.. i still couldn't figure it out how much tanks represent a unit in the game.
What we see is that the Total overall productions of Panzer were in 1943 2x higher and in 1944 3x times higher than in 1942.
But i understand that this forumla alone wouldn't work. You guys did a great job anyways ;-)
To finalize this thread
1939: No changes
1941: -2 Tank, +1 Stug, +1 SS gren
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I feel better that stugs are upgraded- sounds good! 8)
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So we say at 1942 all remaining stug are 4-7 Units ?
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No - leaving it as is. Germans can begin building 4-7 units in 1942.
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I think the way it is is fine too
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Usually not many early war stugs left by mid 43 anyways...